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Parking Eye & Hotel PCN - Help Please
kilberry
Posts: 11 Forumite
Hi there, hopefully the helpful folk here can help advise a way forward for the affected parties wrt the below. I've done my best to read the FAQs etc, but still a bit befuddled by it all, but everyone affected is keen to fight this all the way!
Situation: The Registered keeper of a vehicle has received a PCN from ParkingEye for an alleged breach of "implied contract" at a hotel car park which was, I quote a "Hotel Patron Only Car Park". The Driver (together with all other vehicle occupants) were patrons of the hotel on the day and at the times concerned, and all can provide evidence of this (receipts, photos etc). While there was a barrier to enter the car park, neither the driver nor any passengers noticed any signs indicating any charges. Nor did any of them notice a "terminal in reception" (referred to in the PCN where, apparently, a "Parking Charge is applicable if the motorist fails to enter their full, correct vehicle registration" into it. On leaving the venue late and in the dark, a barrier blocked the way which initially failed to open. A passenger got out of the vehicle to attempt to use the intercom at the barrier and check whether a parking charge might be applicable. The intercom did not work, but the barrier was opened nonetheless, the passenger reentered the vehicle and the driver left with all passengers entirely unaware of any issue. The driver and passengers were entirely oblivious of any potential charges at any point during the visit.
Questions:
1) Should the registered keeper reveal the identity of the driver? I assume not!
2) Should the registered keeper complain to the hotel and, if so, what should be included in/excluded from the complaint? To what level should the RK complain - hotel management, small hotel chain board level, global "brand" level, or all three?
3) How should the registered keeper respond to PE? Only with a "standard template" response, or including mitigating circumstances? Should mention be made that the driver and all occupants were "patrons"? Should evidence of this be provided at this stage? Or should the hotel be made to "work for it" and referred to their own CCTV, or a request for the CCTV be made of them?
4) When should the RK respond to the hotel and ParkingEye respectively?
5) The RK has a history of mental illness, with periods of hospitalisation in Acute Psychiatric Wards in the past brought on by stressful events. Should mention of this be made, and if so how is this best done?
6) While the alleged contractual breach (if any such contract existed, which is disputed) occurred in Wales and the RK lives in Wales, and the PCN was sent in both English & Welsh, the PCN also clearly states that any PE will only accept/respond to appeals in English. There is no mention of Welsh. Could this be considered discriminatory, given that Welsh is an official language? Would an appeal in Welsh be considered valid?
7) Building on 6), the RK is as yet unaware whether signage at the hotel (if such signage exists) is in Welsh and/or English - any particular thoughts on this? The RK will endeavour to obtain photos of these and video of what is visible from a vehicle entering/parking in and leaving the car park
8) Now that GDPR regulations are in force, are there any lines of defence (or, even, ways to cause PE, the hotel and DVLA challenges/delays/irritation) stemming from this act and the use/abuse by either the hotel, ParkingEye and/or DVLA (or any of its agents) in providing/sharing data? Neither the RK nor Driver has at any time specifically or knowingly consented to any data being held by or used by any of the parties concerned in relation to this matter. Is there a way to check what data is being held or how it has been shared? Can anything be done to get parties to cease and desist sharing information about the RK and/or Driver and/or vehicle occupants?
9) Now that GDPR is in place, is there anything I and or others can do pre-emptively towards ParkingEye (and equivalent outfits), other land owners/businesses and/or the DVLA to prevent such predatory practices wrt implied contracts and/or data sharing without my consent? Can someone pre-emptively play them at their own game, indicating that they will not enter into any contract with them other than in writing and signed & witnessed by all parties, nor do I give my consent for any personal data to be shared with any other party other than by that company first seeking my permission in writing?
10) Battle of the forms - is there any mileage in a "battle of the forms" approach, as per the example at the foot of this document. The RK may be happy to enter into any correspondence on the basis if a "appeal registration fee" of, say £50 per appeal/response.
11) The RK (and, if it comes to it, the Driver and Passengers) are happy to consider "playing these folk at their own game" and find every legal way to string out any proceedings and repay them for the distress, irritation and wasted time they are causing the RK and so many other alienated customers. Any suggestions on this will be read with interest.
Dear [Company Name]
Your ref: xxxxxxxxx
Our ref: xxxxxxxx
Thank you for your correspondence of xxxxx, requesting the name of the driver of vehicle xxxxxxx ("the vehicle") between xxxxxx onxxxxxx
Having considered your request, I have decided to decline to offer you the details of the driver. The reasons for this are detailed below:
In your correspondence, you allege that the driver of the vehicle "exceeded free parking duration at [location] [or other allegation]". You then go on to state that "the terms and conditions of the car park are clearly displayed on signs in prominent places".
Unfortunately, you have provided no evidence of these. Two photographs of the vehicle are provided, however neither show it definitively in the location you allege. Furthermore, without a copy of the "terms and conditions" you claim exist, I am not satisfied the driver breached them.
I therefore reject this request.
This decision can be appealed. If you wish to appeal, you must do so within 14 days of the date of delivery of this rejection. The date of delivery is deemed to be xxxx.
All appeals must be made either in writing to:
xxxxx
or by email to xxxxxxx
Please note that all appeals are subject to a £50 Appeal Registration Fee (ARF) that, by submitting an appeal, you agree to pay. The ARF must be paid at the time the appeal is registered, either by cheque (payable to xxx and sent to the above address) or via PayPal, to the above email address. Any appeals received without the relevant ARF will not be considered, but the ARF will remain payable, along with a £10 administration charge; an invoice for £60 will subsequently be issued. Failure to pay this invoice may result in your case being transferred to a debt collection company or to further legal proceedings where additional costs could be incurred.
For the avoidance of doubt, any correspondence received from yourselves ([Company Name]) or by agents acting on your behalf (including, but not limited to, debt collection companies) by either post or email will be considered as an appeal and thus subject to the ARF that, by submitting said appeal, you will (per the terms stated above) have agreed to pay. The one and only exception is an automated acknowledgement of this correspondence.
For the further avoidance of doubt, the ARF is non-refundable, regardless if the appeal is accepted or rejected.
Yours sincerely,
Registered Keeper
Situation: The Registered keeper of a vehicle has received a PCN from ParkingEye for an alleged breach of "implied contract" at a hotel car park which was, I quote a "Hotel Patron Only Car Park". The Driver (together with all other vehicle occupants) were patrons of the hotel on the day and at the times concerned, and all can provide evidence of this (receipts, photos etc). While there was a barrier to enter the car park, neither the driver nor any passengers noticed any signs indicating any charges. Nor did any of them notice a "terminal in reception" (referred to in the PCN where, apparently, a "Parking Charge is applicable if the motorist fails to enter their full, correct vehicle registration" into it. On leaving the venue late and in the dark, a barrier blocked the way which initially failed to open. A passenger got out of the vehicle to attempt to use the intercom at the barrier and check whether a parking charge might be applicable. The intercom did not work, but the barrier was opened nonetheless, the passenger reentered the vehicle and the driver left with all passengers entirely unaware of any issue. The driver and passengers were entirely oblivious of any potential charges at any point during the visit.
Questions:
1) Should the registered keeper reveal the identity of the driver? I assume not!
2) Should the registered keeper complain to the hotel and, if so, what should be included in/excluded from the complaint? To what level should the RK complain - hotel management, small hotel chain board level, global "brand" level, or all three?
3) How should the registered keeper respond to PE? Only with a "standard template" response, or including mitigating circumstances? Should mention be made that the driver and all occupants were "patrons"? Should evidence of this be provided at this stage? Or should the hotel be made to "work for it" and referred to their own CCTV, or a request for the CCTV be made of them?
4) When should the RK respond to the hotel and ParkingEye respectively?
5) The RK has a history of mental illness, with periods of hospitalisation in Acute Psychiatric Wards in the past brought on by stressful events. Should mention of this be made, and if so how is this best done?
6) While the alleged contractual breach (if any such contract existed, which is disputed) occurred in Wales and the RK lives in Wales, and the PCN was sent in both English & Welsh, the PCN also clearly states that any PE will only accept/respond to appeals in English. There is no mention of Welsh. Could this be considered discriminatory, given that Welsh is an official language? Would an appeal in Welsh be considered valid?
7) Building on 6), the RK is as yet unaware whether signage at the hotel (if such signage exists) is in Welsh and/or English - any particular thoughts on this? The RK will endeavour to obtain photos of these and video of what is visible from a vehicle entering/parking in and leaving the car park
8) Now that GDPR regulations are in force, are there any lines of defence (or, even, ways to cause PE, the hotel and DVLA challenges/delays/irritation) stemming from this act and the use/abuse by either the hotel, ParkingEye and/or DVLA (or any of its agents) in providing/sharing data? Neither the RK nor Driver has at any time specifically or knowingly consented to any data being held by or used by any of the parties concerned in relation to this matter. Is there a way to check what data is being held or how it has been shared? Can anything be done to get parties to cease and desist sharing information about the RK and/or Driver and/or vehicle occupants?
9) Now that GDPR is in place, is there anything I and or others can do pre-emptively towards ParkingEye (and equivalent outfits), other land owners/businesses and/or the DVLA to prevent such predatory practices wrt implied contracts and/or data sharing without my consent? Can someone pre-emptively play them at their own game, indicating that they will not enter into any contract with them other than in writing and signed & witnessed by all parties, nor do I give my consent for any personal data to be shared with any other party other than by that company first seeking my permission in writing?
10) Battle of the forms - is there any mileage in a "battle of the forms" approach, as per the example at the foot of this document. The RK may be happy to enter into any correspondence on the basis if a "appeal registration fee" of, say £50 per appeal/response.
11) The RK (and, if it comes to it, the Driver and Passengers) are happy to consider "playing these folk at their own game" and find every legal way to string out any proceedings and repay them for the distress, irritation and wasted time they are causing the RK and so many other alienated customers. Any suggestions on this will be read with interest.
Dear [Company Name]
Your ref: xxxxxxxxx
Our ref: xxxxxxxx
Thank you for your correspondence of xxxxx, requesting the name of the driver of vehicle xxxxxxx ("the vehicle") between xxxxxx onxxxxxx
Having considered your request, I have decided to decline to offer you the details of the driver. The reasons for this are detailed below:
In your correspondence, you allege that the driver of the vehicle "exceeded free parking duration at [location] [or other allegation]". You then go on to state that "the terms and conditions of the car park are clearly displayed on signs in prominent places".
Unfortunately, you have provided no evidence of these. Two photographs of the vehicle are provided, however neither show it definitively in the location you allege. Furthermore, without a copy of the "terms and conditions" you claim exist, I am not satisfied the driver breached them.
I therefore reject this request.
This decision can be appealed. If you wish to appeal, you must do so within 14 days of the date of delivery of this rejection. The date of delivery is deemed to be xxxx.
All appeals must be made either in writing to:
xxxxx
or by email to xxxxxxx
Please note that all appeals are subject to a £50 Appeal Registration Fee (ARF) that, by submitting an appeal, you agree to pay. The ARF must be paid at the time the appeal is registered, either by cheque (payable to xxx and sent to the above address) or via PayPal, to the above email address. Any appeals received without the relevant ARF will not be considered, but the ARF will remain payable, along with a £10 administration charge; an invoice for £60 will subsequently be issued. Failure to pay this invoice may result in your case being transferred to a debt collection company or to further legal proceedings where additional costs could be incurred.
For the avoidance of doubt, any correspondence received from yourselves ([Company Name]) or by agents acting on your behalf (including, but not limited to, debt collection companies) by either post or email will be considered as an appeal and thus subject to the ARF that, by submitting said appeal, you will (per the terms stated above) have agreed to pay. The one and only exception is an automated acknowledgement of this correspondence.
For the further avoidance of doubt, the ARF is non-refundable, regardless if the appeal is accepted or rejected.
Yours sincerely,
Registered Keeper
0
Comments
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Have you contacted the hotel direct, explained just when and why you were there, pointed out that you missed their signs re registering car and asking them to get PE to cancel the ticket?
And your letter is guaranteed to ensure they WILL pursue this to court. Sometimes you can be too smart initially for your own hood.0 -
Good grief Parking Eye will have a good laugh at all that!
Everything you need to know is in the newbies thread, if you break it down and read it a couple of times all will be clear.
The vehicle was caught on ANPR PE's preferred system to scam with little human intervention.
Why have you not contacted the hotel and pointed out the amount of business you all provided them with, and how you hold their staff liable for failing to point out their parking system?
It's the hotel's choice to use these scum they should sort this out for you!0 -
You would be better spending your time re-reading the NEWBIES than typing all that lot out.
Most of your questions are answered in the NEWBIES, and most of the rest are irrelevant.
Hit the hotel manager hard with your complaint about the way the scammers employed by the hotel have treated genuine paying customers.
Get everyone in your party to leave negative feedback on Trapadvisor etcetera.
Send the template from the NEWBIES adding that all the occupants of the car were hotel patrons.
Yes to requests about your data that parking lie hold.
Complain to your MP and Sir Greg Knight MP.
These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill
''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.
These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.
You should also send the MP's comments to the hotel manager.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.
All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
Hi all, thanks for your advice. @Fruitcake - can you clarify a couple of points from your post:
1) Is there a suggested "complaint to hotel (or other retailer)" template somewhere that you suggest the RK sends when you write "Send the template from the NEWBIES adding that all the occupants of the car were hotel patrons..." or are you referring to sending the template begininning:
"Dear Sir/Madam,
Re PCN number:
I appeal and dispute your purported 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny liability and consider the PCN an absolute disgrace and pure intimidation.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving...."
to PE?
2) If you are suggesting the RK should send this template to PE, should the RK wait until after their complaint to the hotel? From various threads, I am concluding (perhaps wrongly) that it is easier for the hotel/retailer to get a PCN cancelled before PE has moved further into their process.
If you are suggesting the RK sends a particular template to the hotel, can you please point me to it? Apologies for asking, but I've already wasted too much time on this over the weekend and unfortunately have to work today (in spite of it being a Bank Holiday) and in spite of reading the Newbies thread several times (as well as various linked threads, I'm still struggling.0 -
1. No 'complaint' template, just tell it from the heart.
2. Yes, that's the template to send to PE (removing the references in it to the IPC as PE are BPA AOS members).
You can hold off send the template while you await a hotel response but you must get it in to PE before their 28-day deadline, even if you've had no (or disappointing) response from the hotel. The next best option to getting a hotel cancellation is to receive a POPLA Code from PE which can only be accessed via the initial appeal to PE.
Miss the appeal deadline and you're in for 6 years of uncertainty as to whether PE will instigate court proceedings - and they are litigious!Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.#Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
Thanks, Umkonaas, much appreciated!0
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Just don't do what Jody Gray did. Astonishingly naive final update there, in a case that turned out exactly as we said it would, all along, needed no intervention whatsoever and achieved nothing, except misleading forum newbies.
A basic tenet of being on a forum is NOT to give your data out to anyone.
Interesting that you posted to resurrect an old/finished thread that I won't be bouncing. Odd for a newbie saying:
I don't. Not the one you replied on. That other thread is NOT something to follow, honestly.I hope many people read your thread
Stick with the forum, if you need help. Ask if you have questions and DO NOT RESPOND if contacted randomly by anyone offering to 'help' off forum. Just don't. Forget it, do not go there.
If you really need help, you will get it here.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Received a response from the hotel GM indicating that on this occasion as a goodwill gesture (!), he had contacted PE to request the PCN be dropped, indicating that he had no wish to alienate local business-folk, but then trying to justify that there are, indeed, lots of signs, that it is not the responsibility of hotel staff to inform drivers of THEIR responsibilities to comply with PE's scammy notices and that this was a once only gesture. Honestly, the mind boggles - if he knew anything about customer service, he'd just grit his teeth, cancel it, smile sweetly and apologise for the distress and grovel to win back my custom. Instead of which he grudgingly asks PE to drop it as though it is a hugely gracious act on his behalf but still try to get the knife in as though it is all the registered keeper's own fault for not expecting some scammer to try and rip his customers off on his property with an implied contract that I knew nothing about. If only he'd had the good sense to button his lip when he'd finished saying he'd cancel it, I might just about be placated.
The manager indicated it might take up to 21 days for it to reflect with PE that it has been cancelled, so for me it is not over yet. Some advice please - should I in any way contact PE yet, or leave it nearer the deadline? Given all I've read about PE, I simply won't believe it is all over until I get some proof from them. What should my next steps be?0 -
Look the PCN up next week on the portal.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
If the response from the hotel was in writing, keep it very, very safe. If it wasn't in writing, then you need to get it that way.
If the PCN hasn't been cancelled/doesn't appear on the parking lie portal by about day 25, bung the appeal template to them and add that the hotel manager has requested it be cancelled. Include a copy of the manager's confirmation.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0
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