John Lewis sofa - does "design fault" = refund

Genghissian

We bought 2 sofas and a chair from JL in September 2016. This was to replace 2 sofas and a chair also from JL the previous year which they accepted were of unacceptable quality. The new 3 seat sofa rapidly became very uncomfortable so that in March 2017, following a visit from a JL inspector, the cushion pads were replaced. These have again deteriorated. Moreover, on removing the cushions for turning as instructed, we found that the lining material had worn through so that the wooden frame is clearly visible. Another inspector has visited and suggested a design fault as the there was no padding over the frame but he said saggy cushions are just a matter of opinion. This design was new when we got it so there were few reviews, there are now a number with the same complaints about saggy cushions.

It looks as if we will be offered a repair of the 3 seater sofa but:
- the 2 seater and chair have the same construction and will likely go the same way
- we don't want to replace cushion pads every 18 months for the rest of the life of suite

Ideally we want to reject the whole lot and go somewhere else - JL have had 2 chances - we have told them this but they are insisting on talking to the manufacturer.

Do we have to let them make repairs or can we just reject?
Appreciate any thoughts on how to progress.

tacpot12

I think you will have to wait for evidence that the 2 seater and chair suffer from the same issue before you can ask for them to be repaired/replaced.

It does sound like there is a design fault, but John Lewis are entitled to repair it rather than refund you. I would seek an assurance from JL that the repair will include padding over the frame.

Hopefully the repair will be reliable, and when the 2-seater or chair go, you can get them repaired in the same way. I realise that this is very unsatisfactory, but a refund at this stage is unreasonable. I would suggest you ask JL for an ex-gratia payment for inconvenience given that this is the second item to be unsatisfactory.

mariemrswood

Hi, just wondered how you got on with JL and the sofas? We have had our new couch / snuggle and footrest for about 10 months and they are becoming more uncomfortable by the day. I got back up now as my bum was numb from sitting on the blooming thing and I couldn't get to sleep as I was so miffed. Our seat cushions seem to be getting squishier by the day and you can tell a difference in the snguggle chair - which isn't sat on as often, and the couch. I went back to the shop a couple of months ago to see what foam was used in the shop floor model however it was no longer on display. Any advice greatly appreciated. Thanks

Genghissian

Hi, sorry to hear you are having problems, it sounds exactly what we have and continue to suffer. After 2 inspections we have been told that it is normal for foam filled cushions to settle and ours have not settled an abnormal amount. The second commented that it felt like a medium firmness foam but that was from pressing the seat a few times and unzipping to look at the filling. It seems this type of sofa is fine unless you actually want to sit on it. We asked JL for the specification of the foam used so we can ensure we get something firmer when we replace the pads. This should be measured in weight by kg and density by Newtons. JL advised that neither they nor the manufacturer could supply this information which I think speaks volumes about the product. We will have to replace at our own cost and we will be taking advice from the foam supplier about a suitable grade. We understand there are 2 firmer grades but one of these is typically only used for furniture in public spaces such as waiting rooms where you would expect a high level of wear and tear.

For the record, all 3 items were eventually repaired to rectify the design fault. For anyone contemplating purchase the model was 'Charlotte' but you just have to look at the reviews now on the JL site to see the number of people dissatisfied with this design. The first repair order was cancelled by the manufacturer without informing us or JL, something which has never been explained. The second aimed only to repair one item, JL denying it had ever agreed to more until we sent them one of their own emails referring to repair of "items". There was a further delay while JL disputed with the manufacturer: the latter said that it had made the goods to JL's design therefore it was not their problem if the design was faulty. Needless to say we are deeply unhappy with the way this has been handled, quite apart from our disgust at the poor quality of goods supplied by a trusted name such as JL. It has taken 5 months, many many phone calls and emails and has not resolved all the issues. Our remaining option would be to engage our own inspector but reviews suggest we would have little chance of success and the cost would cover at least 2 rounds of replacing the cushions. We received a small payment as a "goodwill" gesture for the customer service problems experienced which will just about cover the cost of a first replacement of the cushions. Frankly we are worn down by the whole process and we will never buy JL furniture again.

DoaM

Newtons is not a measure of density - it is a measure of force. (1 Newton = the force required to accelerate a mass of 1 Kg at a rate of 1 metre per second).

Density is typically measured in Kg/m3.

Genghissian

Nevertheless, hardness or density of foam or whatever you want to call it is expressed in Newtons this from a website about furniture foam: "Hardness is measured in a set range of tolerance and is not a one size fits all figure. It is worked out by compressing a piece of foam to 40% of its original size. This measurement is then displayed in newtons (N) so a hardness rating of 70-100N means it takes between 70 and 100 newtons of pressure to compress it to 40%. The higher the figure the more force is needed and, therefore, the firmer the foam."

agrinnall

Genghissian wrote: »

Nevertheless, hardness or density of foam or whatever you want to call it is expressed in Newtons this from a website about furniture foam: "Hardness is measured in a set range of tolerance and is not a one size fits all figure. It is worked out by compressing a piece of foam to 40% of its original size. This measurement is then displayed in newtons (N) so a hardness rating of 70-100N means it takes between 70 and 100 newtons of pressure to compress it to 40%. The higher the figure the more force is needed and, therefore, the firmer the foam."

The problem with expressing the measure as N is that there's nothing about the size of the piece of foam that's compressed, which is why the correct measure of density includes a cubic dimension element. 100N compressing a lump of foam 1cm x 1cm x 1cm won't have the same effect on a piece 1m x 1m x 1m. It's possible that there is an industry standard test that always uses the same size, but it would be better to use the correct measure.

macladd

Hi,

Sounds like a terrible experience with John Lewis. I was looking at a JL sofa a few days ago in store, Seemed comfortable but on closer inspection there was no support under the middle of the sofa and all the cushions were only 1 sided! When turned over there was an orangey coloured thin material with John Lewis stamped all over it. I looked on their website when I got home to find some quite poor reviews of it.

I'm getting frustrated as it seems like a major challenge to find a decent sofa at a reasonable price. The one I looked at in John Lewis was not cheap either but clearly corners are being cut even at John Lewis :eek:

Have you raised your complaint to Managing Director level? Try emailing paula.nickolds@johnlewis.co.uk or call 02078281000 and ask for Paula Nickolds office, they will put you through to Director Relations who have way more clout that Customer Services to investigate and resolve issues like this. Good luck!

mariemrswood

Hi, thanks for replies, just had a technician out and he agreed the seat cushions were very soft (white foam) however he did warn me that as I was not offered any choice as to seat firmness this is probably the way it is suppossed to be, though I think curling up at the edges even when no one is sitting on it due to the soft foam not holding shape is probably not the look they were going for! Will have to wait till next week when he has submitted his report - he did mention the word collapse - which I said shove that in the report. Just been looking on JL website and it doesn't state the filling type of the seat cushion - I asked when I bought it instore if it was foam and was told it was and on their fillings descriptions it says Foam Upholstery
If you…
• Want a firm and supportive sit
• Like a more tailored appearance
• Are looking for minimal, easy upkeep with occasional cushion turns to allow even wear
• Expect to slowly lose a little volume over time

This foam is certainly not firm and supportive and because of this the leather is baggy enough to grab hold of and subsequently the creases (which I expect of leather and won't mind in the future) seem to be developing at a speedy rate.

Thanks again for your comments and suggestions, having trawled around a gazillion shops to find a sofa with thin arms / more bum space I'm hoping I can resolve this. The technician said if they swap the 3 cushions I'd be back at the same place in 6 months as the manufacturing company would prob just send on exactly same grade of white soft foam, so we will see how it goes.

Glad you got sorted @ Genghissian but it must leave a sour taste in the mouth!

Genghissian

While we have been put off JL for life, we have had a very positive experience trying to rectify the sofa cushion problem. We have been dealing with Jordans Foam: had a telephone conversation with sensible advice about what is and is not possible, posted off our covers, got a phone call with 6 options each with a quote - 7 if you count returning the covers at no further cost - again sensible advice about they all meant (what each would feel like, how long the filling will last without deterioration etc), will receive the filled cushions back, by courier, at a time to suit us within 2 weeks. Brilliant service and soooo much cheaper than buying a new sofa. Thankfully the "good will" payment will just about cover the cost of the new cushion pads but not the wear and tear on nerves.

There are some good companies, sadly, despite past glories, John Lewis is no longer one of them.

mariemrswood

Now getting a second opinion from another assessor Ecomaster and if they say it is fine then that's it and JL will deem it that it is just customer opinion/preference. I may have to bite the bullet and buy new cushions so will take a look at Jordans Foam as my husband is really hating the sofa's with a passion and would quite happily swap the couch back for our old second hand to us sofa which we had had for over 10 years :-( . JL said the manufacturing company said the cushions were up to spec however weren't able to give me any info on what that spec actually was. These stay curled up like toast and don't return to cushion shape leaving all the horrid cheap black material on show where (in my opinion) the leather should go further round anyway - I'll stop moaning! Thanks and agree JL seem to be missing the mark customer service / quality wise. Thanks all.