Assaulted at work. No right to self-defence

LABMAN

Bargainhunter69 wrote: »

That defence has no direct effect on any civil or disciplinary action taken by an employer.

Wrong, everyone has the right to self-defence and the workplace can't take that away.

Only one person (in this made up scenario) was physically assaulted...and that was the parent.

Casey1709

Bargainhunter69 wrote: »

That defence has no direct effect on any civil or disciplinary action taken by an employer.

Wrong, everyone has the right to self-defence and the workplace can't take that away.

What a childish & purile post.

FBaby

You've totally missed the point. This case scenario has nothing to do with the law but with the contract employment. Almost inevitably, in the case of a teacher, there would be a clause about adhering to all policies, and you can be sure that there would be a policy about behaviour outside of the work environment and also about bringing the organisation to disrepute and cause for disciplinary actions.

The issue in this case scenario is that the teacher did not act in a teacher like manner. What if it had been a pupil acting like that parent? Would he too act in self-defense by pushing him away.

Teachers are supposed to know how to deal with aggressive behaviours, which includes walking away from conflicting situation and seeking support. That teacher didn't do that, and as such, their action would have been seen as representating that of his employer.

As such, it would be totally reasonable and in line with the policy to consider that his behaviour was gross misconduct, regardless of whether it was his fault or not. The point is, when you are in a situation of representing your employer, which that teacher was as he wouldn't have acted as he was if he wasn't working as a teacher for that organisation, you need to follow the terms of all the organisation's policies. He didn't do that.

Norman_Castle

Bargainhunter69 wrote: »

Wrong, everyone has the right to self-defence and the workplace can't take that away.

Self defence has to be reasonable and appropriate. An employer can consider claims of self defence as inappropriate behaviour.

I brought this up and although the specifics were not discussed some of my class thought like a lot of posters that self defence is not allowed and how they would calmly step back as someone attacked them.

You are allowed to defend yourself but it has to be appropriate and necessary. Escalating a situation is not self defence.

RichardD1970

Have seen similar incidents at work where both the "participants" have been sacked.

And that's in a rough !!!! factory not a school.

LilElvis

RichardD1970 wrote: »

Have seen similar incidents at work where both the "participants" have been sacked.

And that's in a rough !!!! factory not a school.

My husband got punched in the face by a colleague last year and, surprisingly, his "retirement" was announced shortly after. It happened at their monthly management meeting in front of a director. These are all men with six figure salaries and multi-million pound budgets. Husband got the last laugh as the ex-colleague wants to do contracting work, but as that would be for my husband's division it's never going to happen and word has got out in the industry so now he's basically unemployable in that field. Shame really.

Bargainhunter69

This is from the school website and is on many school websites - it is from national guidance.
POLICY ON DEALING WITH AGGRESSIVE PARENTS
1. STATEMENT OF INTENT
The school encourages close links with parents and the community. We believe that
students benefit when the relationship between home and school is a positive one.
The vast majority of parents, carers and others visiting the school are keen to work
with us and are supportive of the school. However, a tiny minority of parents have a
negative attitude towards the school and sometimes, this can result in aggression,
verbal and/or physical abuse towards school staff.
The school expects its staff to behave professionally in these difficult situations and
attempt to defuse the situation where possible, seeking the involvement as
appropriate of other colleagues. However, all staff have the right to work without fear
of violence and abuse and the right, in extreme cases, of appropriate self-defence.
The school expects parents and other visitors to behave in a reasonable way
towards school staff. This policy outlines the steps that will be taken where parents’
behaviour is unacceptable.
2. BEHAVIOUR
Types of behaviour that are considered serious and unacceptable and will not be
tolerated
This is not an exhaustive list but seeks to provide illustrations of unacceptable
behaviour.
!!!61623; Shouting at school staff, either in person or over the telephone.
!!!61623; Physically intimidating a member of staff eg standing very close to him/her
!!!61623; The use of aggressive hand gestures eg two fingers raised
!!!61623; Threatening school staff
!!!61623; Shaking or holding a fist towards another person
!!!61623; Writing abusive comments about a member of staff eg he/she is an idiot
!!!61623; Swearing at a member of school staff.
!!!61623; Pushing
!!!61623; Hitting, eg slapping, punching or kicking
!!!61623; Spitting
!!!61623; Racist or sexist comments
!!!61623; Breaking the school’s security procedures

RichardD1970

Bargainhunter69 wrote: »

This is from the school website and is on many school websites - it is from national guidance.
POLICY ON DEALING WITH AGGRESSIVE PARENTS
1. STATEMENT OF INTENT
The school encourages close links with parents and the community. We believe that
students benefit when the relationship between home and school is a positive one.
The vast majority of parents, carers and others visiting the school are keen to work
with us and are supportive of the school. However, a tiny minority of parents have a
negative attitude towards the school and sometimes, this can result in aggression,
verbal and/or physical abuse towards school staff.
The school expects its staff to behave professionally in these difficult situations and
attempt to defuse the situation where possible, seeking the involvement as
appropriate of other colleagues. However, all staff have the right to work without fear
of violence and abuse and the right, in extreme cases, of appropriate self-defence.
The school expects parents and other visitors to behave in a reasonable way
towards school staff. This policy outlines the steps that will be taken where parents’
behaviour is unacceptable.
2. BEHAVIOUR
Types of behaviour that are considered serious and unacceptable and will not be
tolerated
This is not an exhaustive list but seeks to provide illustrations of unacceptable
behaviour.
!!!61623; Shouting at school staff, either in person or over the telephone.
!!!61623; Physically intimidating a member of staff eg standing very close to him/her
!!!61623; The use of aggressive hand gestures eg two fingers raised
!!!61623; Threatening school staff
!!!61623; Shaking or holding a fist towards another person
!!!61623; Writing abusive comments about a member of staff eg he/she is an idiot
!!!61623; Swearing at a member of school staff.
!!!61623; Pushing
!!!61623; Hitting, eg slapping, punching or kicking
!!!61623; Spitting
!!!61623; Racist or sexist comments
!!!61623; Breaking the school’s security procedures

Ok. It's a question of what is "professional" and what is "appropriate" self defence?

Was the push to the chest the only possible "self defence" or could it have been resolved in a more "professional" way, ie turning and walking away or some other non invasive stratergy?

LilElvis

If "pushing" is deemed to be unacceptable behaviour for a parent then, conversely, it would be reasonable to assume it is equally unacceptable by a teacher.

The alleged document you are citing says that teachers may use appropriate self defense, but only in "extreme cases". The school obviously felt that the threat posed by the parent didn't reach that standard and therefore the teacher's reaction was not appropriate. But who knows, I wasn't there and neither were you.

happyandcontented

Bargainhunter69 wrote: »

This is from the school website and is on many school websites - it is from national guidance.
POLICY ON DEALING WITH AGGRESSIVE PARENTS
1. STATEMENT OF INTENT
The school encourages close links with parents and the community. We believe that
students benefit when the relationship between home and school is a positive one.
The vast majority of parents, carers and others visiting the school are keen to work
with us and are supportive of the school. However, a tiny minority of parents have a
negative attitude towards the school and sometimes, this can result in aggression,
verbal and/or physical abuse towards school staff.
The school expects its staff to behave professionally in these difficult situations and
attempt to defuse the situation where possible, seeking the involvement as
appropriate of other colleagues. However, all staff have the right to work without fear
of violence and abuse and the right, in extreme cases, of appropriate self-defence.
The school expects parents and other visitors to behave in a reasonable way
towards school staff. This policy outlines the steps that will be taken where parents’
behaviour is unacceptable.
2. BEHAVIOUR
Types of behaviour that are considered serious and unacceptable and will not be
tolerated
This is not an exhaustive list but seeks to provide illustrations of unacceptable
behaviour.
!!!61623; Shouting at school staff, either in person or over the telephone.
!!!61623; Physically intimidating a member of staff eg standing very close to him/her
!!!61623; The use of aggressive hand gestures eg two fingers raised
!!!61623; Threatening school staff
!!!61623; Shaking or holding a fist towards another person
!!!61623; Writing abusive comments about a member of staff eg he/she is an idiot
!!!61623; Swearing at a member of school staff.
!!!61623; Pushing
!!!61623; Hitting, eg slapping, punching or kicking
!!!61623; Spitting
!!!61623; Racist or sexist comments
!!!61623; Breaking the school’s security procedures

That is a catch all statement. Of course, none of those are acceptable behaviours but that is not the issue.

The issue here is did the contract of employment have the phrase 'bringing the school into disrepute' in it or something similar? All school contracts that I have been involved with do.

So, self-defence starts by removing yourself from the situation by stepping back and creating space. It does not start with getting the first one in, in front of parents, children and bystanders when on school business. That falls foul of the above clause, and would (should) result in disciplinary action.

If someone strikes out at you that is a different matter but that doesn't seem to be what happened here.