Title - leasehold vs. freehold?

dunroving

I'm in the last throes of solicitor ping-pong before exchanging contracts on the house I am buying.

One last query is causing a delay, and some consternation on the part of the seller's solicitor. The issue is to do with the freehold/leasehold status of the house.

Here's what I am seeing with my untrained eye, in the Official copy of register of title.

Section A (Property Register; "describes the land and estate comprised in the title") it says ..
[name of the local council]
1. (16.10.1997) The freehold land shown edged with red on the plan ....
2. (16.10.1997) The conveyance dated 26 Sept 1997 referred to in the Charges Register was made pursuant to Part V of the Housing Act 1985 and the land has the benefit of and is subject to such easements as are granted and reserved in the said Deed and ... paragraph 2 of Schedule 6 of the said Act.

Section B: proprietor Register
This register specifies the class of title and identifies the owner. It contains any entries that affect the right of disposal.
Title absolute
1. (16.10.1997) Proprietor: [name of deceased owner of house, and teh address of the house]

Section C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.
1. (16.10.1997) Lease dated 11 December 1963 to [name of deceased owner and wife] for 99 years from 29 September 1963.
2. (16.10.1997) A conveyance of the land in this title dated 26 September 1997 between (1) [name of city council] and (2) [name of deceased owner and wife] contains restrictive covenants.

Buyer's (my)solicitor has asked seller's solicitor to remove the lease from the register.

Seller's solicitor has reverted to my solicitor, saying (in words of estate agent), "They are questioning the necessity of deleting the lease from the register as it is referred to on many occasions within the freehold."

I'm waiting to talk this through with my solicitor (they are usually very busy on Fridays), but from what I have described above, is this house freehold, or leasehold?

I have a "photocopy" of the conveyancing document from the 26th September 1997. The various covenants seem to be about access in order to work on the services (water, etc.). I can't see the word "Freehold" anywhere.

The first page says the Council (1) are seised (sic) of the premises hereby conveyed for an estate in fee simple subject to the Lease (hereinafter called "the Lease" particulars whereof are set out in the First Schedule* ...
Then it says the Council (2) "have agreed to sell to the Purchaser [the deceased owner] the said premises subject as aforesaid at the price of (£610.00)

In the next section is a statement that for this payment, the Council conveys to the Purchaser with Limited Title Guarantee all that the premises comprised, etc., etc.

* the First Schedule describes the details of a 99-year lease that started on the above-described date in 1963, with a rent of £25 p.a.

So, does this mean the deceased owner bought out the lease?

As I say, I *am* trying to talk with the solicitor but wondered if anyone on here has experience with a similar situation?

G_M

Go to the Land Registry site here and enter the address. Which of these appears:

* freehold Title
* Leasehold title

If both, who is named as registered owner of each?

What you have quoted above is the freehold Title, and presumably that is what you are buying.
But that does not mean there may not e a leasehold Title as well - indeed it appears there is, created in 1963 for 99 years.

The owner of that lease can therefore live in the property (till 2062) even if you own the freehold. You would simply be his landlord.

So
1) does the lease still exist?
2) who owns it?
3) if owned by your seller, is he selling you that lease as well as the freehold?

Seller's solicitor has reverted to my solicitor, saying (in words of estate agent), "They are questioning the necessity of deleting the lease from the register as it is referred to on many occasions within the freehold."

Do not waste time discussing this with estate agent - he's not a lawyer. Visit your solicitor and sit down for a proper explanation.


Note for others: we often see requests on the forum for advice on selecting solicitors. I always recommend using someone local. Yes, you can often find a cheaper solicitor on the internet, or somewhere non-local, and in 90% of cases all goes smoothly and money may be saved.

But as here, sometimes unexpected issues arise, which are hard to understand. The ability to sit down face-to-face with your conveyancer is invaluable in those cases.

dunroving

G_M wrote: »

Go to the Land Registry site here and enter the address. Which of these appears:

* freehold Title
* Leasehold title

If both, who is named as registered owner of each?

What you have quoted above is the freehold Title, and presumably that is what you are buying.
But that does not mean there may not e a leasehold Title as well - indeed it appears there is, created in 1963 for 99 years.

The owner of that lease can therefore live in the property (till 2062) even if you own the freehold. You would simply be his landlord.

So
1) does the lease still exist?
2) who owns it?
3) if owned by your seller, is he selling you that lease as well as the freehold?

Do not waste time discussing this with estate agent - he's not a lawyer. Visit your solicitor and sit down for a proper explanation.


Note for others: we often see requests on the forum for advice on selecting solicitors. I always recommend using someone local. Yes, you can often find a cheaper solicitor on the internet, or somewhere non-local, and in 90% of cases all goes smoothly and money may be saved.

But as here, sometimes unexpected issues arise, which are hard to understand. The ability to sit down face-to-face with your conveyancer is invaluable in those cases.

Thanks. The link you provided took me to a Portal where I need to Login as a business e-user ... If I used the "Find a property" tab, and search for the address it takes me to a page where I can buy the title register, title plan and flood risk indicator (all of which I already have - I think! - from my solicitor. I clicked on the Specimen Title Register and it looks quite different in format from the "Official copy of register of title" I have from my solicitor, and the specimen has the word Freehold in three places, whereas what I have doesn't use the terms freehold or leasehold anywhere.

Can you point me in the right direction to access the information you have described above?

[ETA: I just noticed in the page where I can order the Title register that it says "Tenure" Freehold"]

Re: the estate agent, she was just giving me the heads-up that this had arisen, so I can keep things moving. We're not trying to resolve or understand the issue between us.

Also, I am not using an online conveyancer, but a real solicitor (albeit they are not close by), who were recommended by a friend who deals with buying and selling property. Although I prefer face-to-face meetings, it is actually more convenient for me to pick up the phone than to have to make an appointment and travel an hour to get to the closest solicitor (plus I live in Scotland, and the house is in England, so by necessity I have to go with an English solicitor).

dunroving

Update: I used the following site: https://search-property-information.service.gov.uk/ that allows you to find basic ownership information (without having to pay for title, etc.). When I searched for the proeprty, the result page said:

"Information available to buy

[address of property]

There is 1 record (!!!8216;property title!!!8217;) for this address"

[Link]: "What!!!8217;s the difference between freehold and leasehold?"

"1. Freehold, described as:
[address of property]"

- based on your post, it seems maybe there no longer is a leasehold for the property(?)

When I clicked on the address in the above page (which had a hyperlink) it took me to another page that said:

"About this property
You'll get a summary of the information HM Land Registry holds for this property title.

[Address of property]

Tenure type: Freehold What does this mean? [hyperlink]

A property can have both a freehold and a leasehold title. To get a different tenure for this address, [hyperlink] go back and select the one you need."

When I click on "go back", it takes me back to the previous page, i.e., showing only 1 record.

G_M

Sorry my link did not take you directly to the right page, but you got there with one further click!

If the Titles on offer at that address are only Freehold, then that suggests there is no registered Leasehold Title.

But it is still possible a Lease exists but has never been registered. That would imply the lease has not been bought, sold, mortgaged etc within the last 30+ odd years (ie since introduction of compulsory registration).

Since the lease was apparantly created in 1963, that is a plausible explanation.

You also mention a 'deceased owner'. Is this a Probate sale? Was the deceased elderly? If so, he may have bought the lease in 1963, pre-registration, and never sold it since then.

dunroving

G_M wrote: »

Sorry my link did not take you directly to the right page, but you got there with one further click!

If the Titles on offer at that address are only Freehold, then that suggests there is no registered Leasehold Title.

But it is still possible a Lease exists but has never been registered. That would imply the lease has not been bought, sold, mortgaged etc within the last 30+ odd years (ie since introduction of compulsory registration).

Since the lease was apparantly created in 1963, that is a plausible explanation.

You also mention a 'deceased owner'. Is this a Probate sale? Was the deceased elderly? If so, he may have bought the lease in 1963, pre-registration, and never sold it since then.

Thanks for your continued help. I didn't realise there may be a lease that wasn't registered.

The deceased owner lived there with his wife (who predeceased him also in 2017) for quite a long time. The Executor is the deceased's son.

I'll ask the solicitor what the situation would be if the deceased did own the lease but hasn't registered it ... though I'd have thought their searches would have produced this(?) Regardless, I wonder whether, if such a lease exists but unregistered, and the lease is not explicitly in the sale, the Executor might at some future date be able to have rights over the property?

G_M

dunroving wrote: »

I'll ask the solicitor what the situation would be if the deceased did own the lease but hasn't registered it ... though I'd have thought their searches would have produced this(?) Regardless, I wonder whether, if such a lease exists but unregistered, and the lease is not explicitly in the sale, the Executor might at some future date be able to have rights over the property?

Assuming :

* you are buying the Freehold, and
* a valid Lease does exists, and
* you do not also buy the lease, then
* the current owner of the lease will continue to own it

In that case, they would naturally be able to occupy the property as leaseholder, until the lease expires in 2062.

dunroving

OK, that's helpful to know. It may be a lease exists and the executor/son doesn't even know about it (from the interactions we have had via solicitors, he doesn't seem like the sort of person who would conceal this if he knew).

Still, the law is the law so it's a bit worrying that the situation could theoretically occur.

Maybe the Executor can sign some document that if the lease does appear at a later date, and belongs to the deceased, either they will waive their rights or transfer to the Freeholder?

Tiglet2

It does sound likely that this property is an unregistered leasehold title. If the owners had lived in the property for many years and the property was never registered at Land Registry, then I would assume that the owner would have all the deeds and documents in a safe place, maybe lodged with a bank or solicitor or even at the property. In order to register the title, the old deeds would need to be sent to Land Registry for first registration.

dunroving

Augh that's awkward. I'm pretty sure the executor/son hasn't found anything. So I wonder how the heck it can be found if it's never been registered and the implications if it can't be found - but somehow turns up at some later stage or is raised when I (or my executors) come to sell the house?

davidmcn

dunroving wrote: »

Augh that's awkward. I'm pretty sure the executor/son hasn't found anything. So I wonder how the heck it can be found if it's never been registered and the implications if it can't be found - but somehow turns up at some later stage or is raised when I (or my executors) come to sell the house?

Well, as far as you're concerned, you have a contract with the executors where they sell the property with vacant possession, so they can hardly come back later and claim that they're actually still tenants.