Lack of Building Regulations & Defective Title Indemnity Insurance

[Deleted User]

We are just a forum. We are not solicitors or legal property experts in the main. These are questions you need to ask your solicitor. Sometimes people can be emphatic and seem to know what they are writing, but later on you discover that the information wasn't correct. You don't know who an individual is, or how accurate what we say is.

Plus, for obvious reasons the answers have to be generalised because we don't know exactly what you are concerned about. A small thing can change the accuracy of an answer where legal matters are concerned.

Ask a solicitor with property expertise. If you don't want to ask your conveyancer, go to another one.

Doozergirl

If they're going to ask anyone, it would be helpful for the OP if it were in a direct manner!

Nebulous2

There are a lot of possible overlapping ways for questions to be generated. If viewing many people will ask whoever is showing them round, "do you have planning and a completion certificate for that bedroom in the loft?"

I've been looking at a lot of surveys recently and they often point things out. " An extension at the back appeared to be around 10 years old. A buyer should satisfy themselves that appropriate planning consents , building control and completion certificates are available."

All of that stuff is then fed to the buyers solicitor who will ask for it in excruciating detail from the sellers solicitor. I'd say the chance of them missing the need for a certificate on a flat conversion is close to nil.

I've never gone beyond that - but the starting point for a buyer or their solicitor is likely to be a demand that a certificate is now applied for and provided. The sellers solicitor is likely to counter by offering to pay for an indemnity policy. The buyers solicitor may well advise the buyer or even their lender, not to proceed on that basis.

Some stubborn buyers who have become attached to a property may go ahead anyway.

So if I've understood you correctly there are a lot of hurdles to cross to get to a sale.

Alberthewolf

Nebulous2 wrote: »

There are a lot of possible overlapping ways for questions to be generated. If viewing many people will ask whoever is showing them round, "do you have planning and a completion certificate for that bedroom in the loft?"

I've been looking at a lot of surveys recently and they often point things out. " An extension at the back appeared to be around 10 years old. A buyer should satisfy themselves that appropriate planning consents , building control and completion certificates are available."

All of that stuff is then fed to the buyers solicitor who will ask for it in excruciating detail from the sellers solicitor. I'd say the chance of them missing the need for a certificate on a flat conversion is close to nil.

I've never gone beyond that - but the starting point for a buyer or their solicitor is likely to be a demand that a certificate is now applied for and provided. The sellers solicitor is likely to counter by offering to pay for an indemnity policy. The buyers solicitor may well advise the buyer or even their lender, not to proceed on that basis.

Some stubborn buyers who have become attached to a property may go ahead anyway.

So if I've understood you correctly there are a lot of hurdles to cross to get to a sale.

Thank you to everyone who has really tried to help, in reality I have been unable to ask a direct question because the matters behind my initial questions are rather complex and intricate.

I will do my best to ask few questions at the time but it is difficult to make the right questions in a very complex legal situation where many parties are involved.

Perhaps, this simple question may help to start unravelling the complexity on this matter I am interested in.

PREAMBLE:
Two adjoined houses were converted into flats several times between 1993 and 1994. The major alteration works as a whole are not considered complete in respect to Building Regulations but three flats were signed off and as result 3 completion certificates were granted in 1993 and shortly after two more conversions were built to form 2 other flats in basements of these two adjoined houses with one (or two ?) additional completion certificate was issued in 1994.

This gives a total of 4 (or 5 ?) completion certificates issued in total.

However, later on these converted premises underwent a number of other major alteration works without permission or inspection resulting in 9 converted flats with 8 out of 9 of these converted flats crammed in two four-storey buildings.

Conversion flats were built within the two existing roofs adding substantial weight and altering fundamentally the original structure of the two adjacent (adjoined) houses after these 4 (or 5 ) certificates were granted between 1993 and 1994.

The actual structure of the converted 2 four-storey building is now so different that the local council’s records are unable to identify which flats the existing certificates ( granted in 1993 and 1994) relate to.


QUESTION:
Since the building underwent a number of multiple major alterations which resulted in 9 converted flats but there are only 4 or 5 completions certificates granted before the additional alterations is the local authority under the duty to pass this information to the perspective buyers and their solicitors?

davidmcn

It would help if you told us which party (if any) you are in this scenario and why you're asking. But anyway...

Alberthewolf wrote: »

is the local authority under the duty to pass this information to the prospective buyers and their solicitors?

The local authority is under a duty to make their records available to anybody who asks to see them. If there are gaps in the records, that's something which everyone has to live with.

Alberthewolf

davidmcn wrote: »

It would help if you told us which party (if any) you are in this scenario and why you're asking. But anyway...


The local authority is under a duty to make their records available to anybody who asks to see them. If there are gaps in the records, that's something which everyone has to live with.

==================================

Thank you David, you seem to know quite a bit on this matters,

I am puzzled because the local council’s records are unable to identify which flats these certificates relate. If this is the case and the council's records are entirely inaccurate how can the correct information (and truth) be passed on the buyers?

If a resident ask "Can you please let me know if my home has a completion certificate", how can anyone provide the answer if the local council records are inaccurate and outdated?:huh:

At the same time when a conveyance solicitor run a local search, how can the the local authority provide the correct answer if their own records do not have the information? :idea::question::huh:

What if someone had built more flats inside Greenfel Tower and the council is now asked the question?!? Aren't they meant to answer?!?:shocked::search:

davidmcn

The council's records are what they are. If they don't include sufficient information to clarify the position then I'm not sure how anyone (including the council) can remedy that now.

But what is the actual problem? It's much too late now for the council to enforce any lack of certification (especially if it's arguable that the works were in fact consented to). If there are any practical problems arising from e.g. poor quality work, those will have manifested themselves in the past quarter century.

And even if there were consents from 1993, that doesn't mean that nothing else has been done to the property since then.

System

what is your interest in this - it's like pulling teeth?!
can you just say what information you need and why, it's an endless stream of consciousness with some vague questions in amongst it.
The local authority will only have records of building work that they have been notified of, they don't have someone going in and out of every house checking who's done what, the onus is on the developer to comply with statutory duties, if the information isn't there it isn't there, this makes it difficult sometimes with lenders. There is no duty on anyone to disclose anything unless they are asked about it.

Alberthewolf

the_r_sole wrote: »

what is your interest in this - it's like pulling teeth?!
can you just say what information you need and why, it's an endless stream of consciousness with some vague questions in amongst it.
The local authority will only have records of building work that they have been notified of, they don't have someone going in and out of every house checking who's done what, the onus is on the developer to comply with statutory duties, if the information isn't there it isn't there, this makes it difficult sometimes with lenders. There is no duty on anyone to disclose anything unless they are asked about it.

Please be patient. The matter is complex and it is not easy to identify the right responsibilities, hence various questions.

"QUOTED: .....they don't have someone going in and out of every house checking who's done what..." ----> true, but what the alteration consist in major works and 3 converted flats are built on top of a house making it into a 4 storey building and a garage is transformed in a 3 storey building with no compliance with building regulations and no planning applications? These are not small works, right? What is there are serious structural hazards involved or no fire escape routes and other serious hazards due to all the pipes that must be built for 4 or 5 additional homes and crammed where before there was only a ground-floor and 1st floor Victorian house? And what if all these major alterations are posing serious hazards but are not visible from outside and are latent?


A - If the local authority is aware that there are 9 converted homes (flats) but only 4 or 5 certificates isn't the local authority bound to pass this information to the conveyance solicitor? (or anyone who makes the request to obtain the information)

B - Is the council legally bound to pass the correct information (data) in its records to the buyers or any member of the public who has legal and financial interest in the information?

C - Has the legal owner of the converted building a legal duty to inform the council or the buyers' solicitor if he/she knows the truth?

If you just answer 'yes' or 'not' maybe is easier ask the right questions

I hope that someone has the answers we are seeking.....

Doozergirl

A - No. A high % of properties are lacking PP, BCA or both. The council only know what they know. You have to ask the question to get the answer. "I want to buy Flat 1". Search is carried out on Flat 1. Council provides the search results. If there is no BCA, PP result then that is for the buyer's solicitor to start delving deeper and asking questions of the vendor.

B - The council has to provide what it is asked for if it has it. If the building owner has turned the building into a random HMO and the council doesn't know, they don't know. Someone has to tell them. It sounds like someone's only just told them.

C - They are legally bound to answer the questions asked by a buyer's solicitor with the truth. They don't have to reveal anything if it is not asked.

As for informing the council, yes they should apply for relevant permissions but this is complex and can't be answered with a yes/no! The council can enforce that things are done correctly if they know about it, but then they may choose not to. It is the buyer's decision on whether to buy or not. If they take on something that the council subsequently puts an enforcement order on, then the problem belongs to the buyer.

I still don't think you're helping yourself here. People often come here looking for the answer to one question but because they need help, they don't realise that it's a different question that needs answering.

Whatever you are asking, it isn't moving you forward. The question that needs answering is "How do I move forward".

Are you the buyer? How many flats have you purchased? What do the Land Registry Title Plans show for each flat? Do they relate to what is there? That is the buyer's responsibility to check as they are the only one that has been to the property. Are there mortgages involved?

If it's complex then it goes without saying that "yes" and "no" answers are impossible, especially seeing as we're being fed information at a glacial pace. There are variables. We're dealing with many different processes that culminate in a sale. Or not.

We do this for free because we like it. I'm not particularly enjoying this as I think you aren't saying enough and we're probably wasting our time giving you irrelevant information because we don't know what we're dealing with.

It's only complicared because you're making it so. Speak from your point of view, tell your story from your angle. We then ask the pertinent questions.