House purchase - loft space and building regs

beefster

I have recently had the building survey completed on a house I a looking to purchase. A few minor issues but one I am concerned about.
The survey states the "loft conversion" does not conform to current building regulations. Specifically the joists are under size although a steel reinforcing joist has been installed to mitigate any flexing. The loft was converted prior to the current owner purchasing in 2010. The next door neighbour believes it was completed in aprox 2000 - 2005. A planning application was made for windows to be put in place on the gable end and velux windows in the roof but not for the loft conversion to an ensuite bedroom.


The owner has simply said it was like it when he purchased it.


My concerns are mainly that this house is a step in a life plan and we would look to sell in 8 years aprox. Looking forward in that regard.... Is Indemnity insurance worth the paper its written on? I am hearing this may be a way forward? Should I even be worried as its been there for so long?


Thanks for any input.

ashe

If it doesnt meet the regs and wasn't signed off it cant be sold as a bedroom and should be priced accordingly, as you will have the same issue should you come to sell. if the work is good and its not had any issues it might not be an issue.

System

Interesting, who has decided that the joists are undersized and the steel is insufficient? does the original conversion have building regs sign off? (not planning)
If its been in use for 15 years plus it's strange they would be so specific about the structure (i.e. it hasn't fallen down in 15 years of use!) some small works will be exempt from building regs, I can't remember the caveat for en suites off the top of my head, someone will be able to advise on that.
Finally - the only houses that would comply with current regs are brand new houses built under the current regs, houses built even three years ago would likely not comply with current regs, you cannot (and the authorities cannot) retrospectively apply regs.

If the structure is of genuine concern then it's the remit of a structural engineer to inspect and advise how to remedy - the indemnity usually doesn't really cover much apart from local authority enforcement which is the least of the concerns if the loft floor gives way!

beefster

My surveyor reported joists undersize quoting "current building regulations". I totally agree that mentioning "current" means the comment is really a waste of ink tbh. I suppose it may have conformed when installed but there is no sign off available from the seller.


No ceiling cracking etc underneath.

Doozergirl

ashe wrote: »

If it doesnt meet the regs and wasn't signed off it cant be sold as a bedroom and should be priced accordingly, as you will have the same issue should you come to sell. if the work is good and its not had any issues it might not be an issue.

Sigh. This is not true. Every house has to be taken on its own merit.

System

Are the joists exposed anywhere and the steel reinforcement?
still seems like way over the mark of a surveyor to be able to decide that on inspection (unless of course they are 75mm ceiling ties spaced 1200mm apart!)

beefster

Not sure on that. He has quoted the steel is there so must have seen it I assume?
I haven't looked myself and obviously have limited access as a prospective buyer.


From the building survey,,,
"
Loft conversions require a minimum 50 x 200mm joists, minimum 2m head height, fixed or alternating stair/ladder (where one habitable room), 100 !!!8211; 120mm dormer cheeks, insulation self-closing fire door, fire resisting enclosure, and Planning/Building Certification and final sign-off documentation.

It was noted that the joists within the converted loft accommodation are somewhat shallow, although it would appear a steel beam has been provided central to this structure (running left to right across the main build). This does appear to be sustaining the load to the loft floor, whilst reducing flex to the floor structure to same. "


To go to the extent of incorporating a steel seems to me to indicate it was completed with some regard for the floor loading.

Doozergirl

beefster wrote: »

Not sure on that. He has quoted the steel is there so must have seen it I assume?
I haven't looked myself and obviously have limited access as a prospective buyer.


From the building survey,,,
"
Loft conversions require a minimum 50 x 200mm joists, minimum 2m head height, fixed or alternating stair/ladder (where one habitable room), 100 !!!8211; 120mm dormer cheeks, insulation self-closing fire door, fire resisting enclosure, and Planning/Building Certification and final sign-off documentation.

It was noted that the joists within the converted loft accommodation are somewhat shallow, although it would appear a steel beam has been provided central to this structure (running left to right across the main build). This does appear to be sustaining the load to the loft floor, whilst reducing flex to the floor structure to same. "


To go to the extent of incorporating a steel seems to me to indicate it was completed with some regard for the floor loading.

I'd agree. "Somewhat shallow" doesn't sound disastrous. Fact is, building regulations are more than is actually needed. Whilst certainly preferable, there is more than one way to skin a cat and it's good to see that some attention has been paid. Your surveyor doesn't really seem to be highlighting this as a major issue.

System

Loft conversions require a minimum 50 x 200mm joists,

No, No they don't - they require whatever a structural engineer has calculated based on the existing structure and the designed loadings of the conversion.
If it doesn't have building regs sign-off and you're concerned get an actual engineer to look at it and put the surveyor back in his box
the rest of what is required is also not correct :rotfl: I would ask the guy if they can show you the regs

AndySab

Your surveyor has pretty much made up building regs on the spot. Joists specifically covered in the post above. There's no head height requirement in a loft conversion except at the landing to the stairs (2 mtr, less to account for a sloping roof). You could have to crawl around the rest of it and it would conform to regs.

lastbigspender

the_r_sole wrote: »

Interesting, who has decided that the joists are undersized and the steel is insufficient? does the original conversion have building regs sign off? (not planning)
If its been in use for 15 years plus it's strange they would be so specific about the structure (i.e. it hasn't fallen down in 15 years of use!) some small works will be exempt from building regs, I can't remember the caveat for en suites off the top of my head, someone will be able to advise on that.
Finally - the only houses that would comply with current regs are brand new houses built under the current regs, houses built even three years ago would likely not comply with current regs, you cannot (and the authorities cannot) retrospectively apply regs.

If the structure is of genuine concern then it's the remit of a structural engineer to inspect and advise how to remedy - the indemnity usually doesn't really cover much apart from local authority enforcement which is the least of the concerns if the loft floor gives way!

I relation to this I am purchasing a property which a loft conversion was completed 35 yrs ago with no Building Control (BC) Regs. BC Officer has assessed it as my solicitor has asked for a Certificate but there is quite a bit of work to do. I assume that the BC Officer cannot apply the current regulations but apply the regulations that were at the time of conversion work?