Insurance: “garage” defined over the phone but nowhere in writing

SouthLondonUser

dacouch wrote: »

Two other Insurers is irrelevant, what matters is the EXACT wording of the question your own insurer asked you

Oh, dear, I really cannot explain myself, can I? As I have already said twice, the bike is currently declared as on the road because when I took out the current insurance policy there was no price difference. The current policy expires in a few weeks; I have not bought a new one yet. The question is not about the current policy which is about to expire, but about where to buy the new one - a decision which will also depend on this point about the garage. In post # 4 I reported the definitions of two insurers which quoted some of the best prices; one of this, Ramasis, explicitly mentions "private garage", while the other (Devitt) does not.

Herzlos wrote: »

Can you describe this shared garage to us? Is it a separate building? Does it have a locking door (with all 12 properties having keys?) or a barrier?
I'm struggling to picture what a communal garage is and how it differs from a secure car park.

Unless you can get them to submit something in writing, or have any evidence that you are keeping in a garage, I'd be looking elsewhere.

Again, "secure car park" is NOT an option. To be super clear, it is not an option on the price comparison website confused.com, nor is it an option on the website of the insurer (Devitt) which I found through confused.com (I have not double but quadruple-checked). The options are "locked garage, private driveway, road". Again, the options are IDENTICAL on both the price comparison and the insurer's website.

I live in a building with 12 or 15 flats (don't remember exactly). What I call my garage is part of the building itself; basically, the garage is in a space that could have possibly been used for 1 or 2 ground floor flats, or for 1 or 2 shops. The one and only entrance is a roller shutter garage door, that is opened via a remote control. The garage contains the gas meters, 5 allocated car bays (all of which have already been sold), and a rack to park bicycles. I keep my motorcycle chained next to the pushbike rack; to be clear, I do NOT occupy the space of a pushbike. All leaseholders are theoretically entitled to a copy of the remote; however, since it's not free, some of those who don't have cars and don't have pushbikes have not bothered paying for one so don't have access, and ask us neighbours for a reading of their gas meters.

The terms of the lease do not say anything about storing motorcycles - neither explicitly permitted neither explicitly prohibited. I am certainly not going to raise the point with the freeholder, given that the bike does not inconvenience anyone and no one has complained.

SouthLondonUser

Car_54 wrote: »

The definition may not be in writing, but you seem to have been told exectly what it means (or in this case, doesn't mean). Doesn't that explanation (which no doubt was recorded) form part of your contract?

I'm not so sure. I spoke to Ramasis but not with Devitt.
Yes, Ramasis told me over the phone that for them "garage" means accessible by me only. But they also told me loads of incorrect information. It took me more than 10 minutes over the phone to extract from Janine in the call centre how they work out refunds if I were to cancel before the policy ends. First she said no refund, then she said some charges, then she said she couldn't quantify these charges, then she said "the refund will depend on the rates in force at the time you cancel the policy" (not true), and only after my 5th request to receive all the terms and conditions did she finally point me to the table that specified the less-than-pro-rata refunds. My point is: words are cheap, and I don't give much value to whatever call-centre minions say if it's not reflected in writing in the contract! At the end of the day, Janine or Tony from the call centre do not have the power to sign anything on behalf of their employer; it's not an oral contract with Janine or Tony, but a written contract with their employer.

dacouch

I am out then, I think you will also find anyone else with the relevant knowledge will also bow out.

The answer to your question is not in definitions in policy wordings or in other Insurers definitions. It is down to the exact wording of the questions you were asked.

This is backed up by statutory laws

Aylesbury_Duck

I agree. Trying to be clever with definitions instead of just being absolutely clear with the insurer over the phone might backfire in the event of a claim. The circumstances of where the bike is kept are what they are and the cost of insurance will be set accordingly. Everything the OP has told us about the circumstances should be told to the insurer. Trying to wriggle around on a technical point (aka lying) or selectively withholding information to make it fit a cheaper premium is not the way to go about it.

SouthLondonUser

@Aylesbury, I beg to differ. When the options are only: private driveway, locked garage and road, I struggle to see how what I have described is closer to being a "driveway" or "road" than it is to being a locked garage. Declaring it as a garage is neither withholding information nor lying.

However, the question was not that; the question was whether anyone knows of any case history / case law / ruling etc on this, and the answer seems to be a loud and clear "no". So - I agree - declaring it as 'garage' exposes me to the risk of a lengthy complaint with the insurer, and potentially to the risk the insurer will not pay up. In this context, my opinion and your opinion are totally irrelevant: the only thing that will matter will be the opinion of the judge or the Ombudsman person making the decision.

I have a particular gripe with companies that try to enforce terms never specified in the contracts.
Of course it's a totally separate case in a totally different sector with totally different amounts at stake, but last year I had an issue with the Vodafone broadband: I wanted to use my own router as theirs was terrible, but they wouldn't let me, even though no such restriction was in writing. I had to file a formal complaint but they finally waived the termination fee and let me switch broadband with no penalty

Aylesbury_Duck

It's not about which description is closest, it's that there is a hierarchy of perceived risk with locked garage presumably less risky than private driveway which in turn is presumably less risky than road. If you were forced to choose one of those categories it would probably be wise to choose private driveway because what you have as storage is an enhancement of that, not a diminished version of a locked garage. You definitely do have a private driveway at least. You probably don't have what constitutes a locked garage.

My understanding of getting insurance is that if there is anything that is ambiguous, unclear or unique to your circumstances, you should contact the insurer or a broker directly rather than trying to force your circumstances into the limited number of best-fit categories they give you online, whether directly or through a comparison site. A decent insurer will tailor the contract accordingly. If, after speaking to them they insist you go to one of the aforementioned three categories, I would describe your situation as a private driveway. Or look elsewhere until you find a policy you're happy with.

SouthLondonUser

What I don't understand is why no insurer seems willing to provide these clarifications in writing. What call centre minions say over the phone is irrelevant - they have told me loads of incorrect information several times.

Car_54

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

@Aylesbury, I beg to differ. When the options are only: private driveway, locked garage and road, I struggle to see how what I have described is closer to being a "driveway" or "road" than it is to being a locked garage. Declaring it as a garage is neither withholding information nor lying.

However, the question was not that; the question was whether anyone knows of any case history / case law / ruling etc on this, and the answer seems to be a loud and clear "no". So - I agree - declaring it as 'garage' exposes me to the risk of a lengthy complaint with the insurer, and potentially to the risk the insurer will not pay up. In this context, my opinion and your opinion are totally irrelevant: the only thing that will matter will be the opinion of the judge or the Ombudsman person making the decision.

Some years ago I worked for a company where salesmen would routinely exaggerate the benefits of an insurance product in order to secure a sale.

Our lawyers advised that a "reasonable " consumer was entitled to rely on what the salesman had said - he was representing the company - and that unless it was obviously and outrageously false a judge would rule that these oral statements overrode the Ts and Cs. Fortunately, with a fairly low-value product, no-one ever tested this.

dacouch is our resident insurance expert: he has already given you the correct advice above.

Begsey

MCE emailed me at the start of March, garage info was in it. I'd seen a post about it on another forum, so I think it's been updated recently.

Garage
A locked structure for housing motor vehicles constructed of brick, concrete, steel or stone which is your
private property.
It is NOT:
A rented or owned space in a shared car park
A parking area in/under flats
Any form of locked compound
Any building not built for housing motor vehicles such as a home or a workplace

Herzlos

Garages can also be wooden, so I'm not sure how accurate that description is.

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

@Aylesbury, I beg to differ. When the options are only: private driveway, locked garage and road, I struggle to see how what I have described is closer to being a "driveway" or "road" than it is to being a locked garage. Declaring it as a garage is neither withholding information nor lying.

I agree with this actually; given the options it's more like a locked garage than a private driveway. No mention is made of it being private, and it does lock with a garage door (and not a barrier) so only people with a key have access to the bike.

So you *should* be ok - you chose the closest option and aren't actually trying to deceive them with regards to risk. The only problem is (as I understand it), they told you over the phone that they don't regard it as a garage. What did they tell you it should be recorded as?