Freeholder contract rights ?

Jane_B

Good afternoon,

Not sure if anyone can help but here it goes.

We moved into a Taylor Wimpey property in August 2016. As the freeholder they signed the agreement with the managing agents for our entire block. The managing agents have been unclear about their contractual levels of service, they keep changing their minds between visiting us every 12 - 8 weeks. I have asked to see the wording in their agreement to make sure they are sticking to that and other things (if they are failing in one area, who is to say they aren't in others) as they are saying that in their agreement with Taylor Wimpey, they haven't put a figure on the visit schedule. To which I replied asking how did they calculate the management fee, if they don't now how often they will be visiting. Its also very unusual for the agreements to not state the expected level and frequency of visits, which is why we want to check.

Now both Taylor Wimpey and the managing agents have refused to show me a copy of the contract, as we are not party to it. So my question is, if I am not party to the contract, but I am financially effected by the contents of said agreement, do I have a legal right to see it ?

Also I need to see the date it was signed, as if it was signed after our lease was, they would have had to consult us before agreeing on the managing agents costs etc. so how am I supposed to check if I am not allowed to see the contract at all.

Can anyone help ?

TIA.

Comms69

You would need to seek a right to manage arrangement, that would mean you and a majority of the other leaseholders clubbing together

Jane_B

We are trying, however in our leases Taylor Wimpey have added that we cannot replace or remove the managing agents for 3 years, which is again why I wanted to see their agreement, as its all very fishy

[Deleted User]

TBH with all the negative press surrounding TW leaseholds I think a visiting schedule is the least of your worries.

Jane_B

Its not just the visiting schedule though, that's the main reason we have to want to check, however as you said with the latest negative press I want to check the whole thing over in general, to make sure its all kosher. The fact both companies, are refusing to show the contract smells fishy to me, and makes me wonder what is in there they are so keen to hide. I just wanted to see if anyone with knowledge around contract rights, could assist in my legal basis for asking to see a contract I am effected by, however am not party to.

The lease issue we are raising separately with our solicitors, who are pushing for that clause to be looked into, as its not competitive (essentially saying we have to keep the managing agents they want for 3 years minimum irregardless of if they are bad)

eddddy

Jane_B wrote: »

Now both Taylor Wimpey and the managing agents have refused to show me a copy of the contract, as we are not party to it.

Your lease is your "contract".

Your lease will specify what your freeholder must do.

However, your freeholder has instructed a managing agent to undertake their responsibilities.

In simple terms, you just need to make sure that...

• the freeholder/managing agent does what it says in the lease, and
• charges you a reasonable fee for doing what it says in the lease, and
• Doesn't try to charge you for anything that isn't mentioned in the lease

You can challenge the freeholder/managing agent if...

• They don't do what the lease says
• The fee they charge for doing what the lease says is unreasonable

So, for example...

If the managing agent is visiting every 8 weeks and it's unreasonable (unnecessary) to visit that often and that is resulting in high service charge for you - you can challenge it.

You could argue that 12 weekly visits are reasonable and therefore a lower service charge is reasonable.

Jane_B

Ah thank you, will have another look over the lease. Yes the visits are a point of contention, since they state they are not bound by any specific number of visits, which we have then asked how they have calculated their management fee, if they pluck numbers out their behinds!
They have said they offer a fixed fee, which doesn't depend on the amount of visits, they quickly changed their tune when I then suggested, if the visits do not impact the cost, that they then visit us daily

eddddy

One way of deciding whether a managing agent's fee is reasonable is to ask leaseholders in other similar developments/blocks in the area what management fee they are paying. (Or even by getting written quotes from other management companies - perhaps by saying you're interested in RTM).


If, for example, you can gather evidence that your managing agent's fee is 50% above 'the going rate' for similar properties in the area, that's a strong basis for challenging your fee.


(So you don't need to care about the details of the contract between the freeholder and the managing agent. You just need to care whether your building is being well maintained and how much you are paying.)

G_M

Jane_B wrote: »

We are trying, however in our leases Taylor Wimpey have added that we cannot replace or remove the managing agents for 3 years, which is again why I wanted to see their agreement, as its all very fishy

I've no idea if that is enforcible but my guess is that such a clause could not over-ride your statutory right to self-manage.

https://www.lease-advice.org/fact-sheet/right-to-manage/

InterestedParty2018

Agree entirely with Eddddy above.
Your contract is the lease. The parties to the lease have obligations to fulfil.
in *most* leases the freeholder (landlord) will have the right to appoint a managing agents to observe/fulfil all the covenants/obligations within the lease. Again, in *most* leases, the cost of this is recoverable through the service charge.

The overriding rule is that costs must be reasonable.

It is highly unlikely that the lease will state frequency of visits (or any visits for that matter), from a managing agent. It is up to the freeholder to agree terms that are reasonable.

If the block/estate is falling into disrepair and the maintaining obligations are not being fulfilled, then challenge this. The freeholder then need to engage their agent to visit more frequently, to ensure maintenance is dealt with promptly.

Please be aware, the more you ask of an agent, the more they will charge.

For the purpose of comparison, my experience is as follows:

- Many MA's will not commit to their client (the freeholder) to more than three monthly visits (ie quarterly)
- The MA's fees are broadly calculated on the number of flats. Then work upwards if there are extensive services which require their further time/intervention (ie payroll for employees, extra luxuries like gyms/pools etc)
- Please bear in mind that some flat owners never speak to the agent, whereas others can call/email on a daily basis. It is very difficult to predict the ratio. MA's dont have magic ball which predicts the future and generally the demands that will be expected of them during the year (from lessees, weather, building repairs). So one may say there is an element of guess work, albeit calculated on industry knowledge and years of experience.

When it comes to fees, I would suggest you crudely calculate the fee that is applicable to your own flat for the year. Remove the VAT element. Think about this net figure, and ask yourself, if I take up 2-5 hours of the MA's time every year in emails, calls, producing paperwork (invoices, circulars), processing payments etc, would I be getting value for money? Would they still be making a profit? (They are a business after all.) In addition to your designated property manager you also have administration staff assisting them (accounts) and overheads.

Going back to the net figure - if you were to engage the services of a professional (chartered surveyor, solicitor and accountant), how much of *their* time could you buy with that figure? I'm not suggesting they are equally as qualified/experienced, but they too are professionals who in the most are accredited to various industry bodies.

Food for thought?

Just one final add - I am not am employee of Taylor Wimpey, nor connected with their organisation in any way. I do however have experience in the property sector.

NeilCr

InterestedParty2018 wrote: »

Agree entirely with Eddddy above.
Your contract is the lease. The parties to the lease have obligations to fulfil.
in *most* leases the freeholder (landlord) will have the right to appoint a managing agents to observe/fulfil all the covenants/obligations within the lease. Again, in *most* leases, the cost of this is recoverable through the service charge.

The overriding rule is that costs must be reasonable.

It is highly unlikely that the lease will state frequency of visits (or any visits for that matter), from a managing agent. It is up to the freeholder to agree terms that are reasonable.

If the block/estate is falling into disrepair and the maintaining obligations are not being fulfilled, then challenge this. The freeholder then need to engage their agent to visit more frequently, to ensure maintenance is dealt with promptly.

Please be aware, the more you ask of an agent, the more they will charge.

For the purpose of comparison, my experience is as follows:

- Many MA's will not commit to their client (the freeholder) to more than three monthly visits (ie quarterly)
- The MA's fees are broadly calculated on the number of flats. Then work upwards if there are extensive services which require their further time/intervention (ie payroll for employees, extra luxuries like gyms/pools etc)
- Please bear in mind that some flat owners never speak to the agent, whereas others can call/email on a daily basis. It is very difficult to predict the ratio. MA's dont have magic ball which predicts the future and generally the demands that will be expected of them during the year (from lessees, weather, building repairs). So one may say there is an element of guess work, albeit calculated on industry knowledge and years of experience.

When it comes to fees, I would suggest you crudely calculate the fee that is applicable to your own flat for the year. Remove the VAT element. Think about this net figure, and ask yourself, if I take up 2-5 hours of the MA's time every year in emails, calls, producing paperwork (invoices, circulars), processing payments etc, would I be getting value for money? Would they still be making a profit? (They are a business after all.) In addition to your designated property manager you also have administration staff assisting them (accounts) and overheads.

Going back to the net figure - if you were to engage the services of a professional (chartered surveyor, solicitor and accountant), how much of *their* time could you buy with that figure? I'm not suggesting they are equally as qualified/experienced, but they too are professionals who in the most are accredited to various industry bodies.

Food for thought?

Just one final add - I am not am employee of Taylor Wimpey, nor connected with their organisation in any way. I do however have experience in the property sector.

Absolutely.

We've just been out to tender for a new MA. All quotes were based on the number of units.

For the last 15 years or so I've been a director of a resident freehold owned development on two different sites. The quality of the MA is not predicated on the number of visits they make. It's what they do after the visits that is the key. I have to say, in my experience anyway, the property manager assigned to your development is a major factor in how successful the MA is. Get a good one..... get a bad one....Plus their support back at base.