Indigo | Train Station | QDR solicitors

failedcommuter

I'll cut straight to it:

1. Driver received a PCN for "failing to display a valid ticket" roughly 5 months ago
2. Appealed using the internal Indigo process, appeal was rejected (NB I never received a POPLA appeal number, but I think this is due to the BPA's assessment that it will no longer adjudicate for railway byelaw cases?)
3. No NtK was received (though during the internal appeal part of it involved providing the driver details which I did give, not sure if this impacts whether or not they are required to send?)
4. I confess that at this point I did email them stating that I rejected their findings and if they wished to pursue the money the only method I would be satisfied with would be in a court of law, whereby I would put my case against their case for their "invoice" (again probably the wrong thing to do but it did feel good)
5. I received no communication for the next ~4 months, until now, a letter from QDR arrived with a bill of £208, key snippets from letter include as:

"instructed by ZZPS Limited who are acting on behalf of Indigo Park Solutions UK Ltd" "Failure to make the payment in full or contact us to discuss the payment of the debt may result in us recommending to the car park operator that the matter be enforced through criminal court proceedings, which would require you to appear before the magistrates court" "Please call us on XXXX..." "Yours sincerely QDR solicitors"

RE the letter itself: it seems they have learnt lessons from earlier responses, probably originating from this forum, since they've toned it back to stating factually "if this action were pursued it would require you to appear in court" which is laughably obvious. Equally as funny is that they actually signed off the letter as QDR Solicitors, and did a little signature rather than provide a name, probably following the success of Johnersh's letter response addressed to the managing partner?

From research on the forums and related sites I gather the following:
1. If I move beyond six months (approx half a month to go) and I haven't received a court summons, then they cannot (legally) continue to chase me
2. QDR are a subsidiary of Wright Hassall (I did actually look these guys up and it appears they are both registered solicitors)
3. I shouldn't respond to them at this point as it would mean that I accept the principle of a contract, though I may have already done this at the appeal stage?

My questions are:
1. The letter are being sent to an incorrect address currently (I moved about 2 weeks ago), and though it is great not having to receive them, I do not want to miss an LBC, however unlikely that may be. Should I contact them saying I no longer live there, and what medium is it best to do so (email / call / letter etc.)?
2. Can I just tell to take me to court or get lost? The basis of this is that they issued a parking ticket for me "failing to display a valid ticket", however the tickets you buy through their app are valid from midnight to midnight (therefore I had a "valid ticket" just not when the guy checked my vehicle? I find it pretty hard to see a court disagreeing with this as an argument?
3. Assume I did go to court, and lost, what would I owe theoretically? The original PCN of £100 + £? in the way of court costs?
4. How much longer are they likely to continue to chase me for, and are there any other key timelines I need to be aware of outside of the 6 month window for a railway byelaw to be challenged in court? I've seen somewhere something about after 6 years, but I'm not clear on what cases this would relate to?

Apologies for not following the script from day 1...

twhitehousescat

the letter from qdr/zzps , does it give you "x" days to reply , if you do not , they may kidnap your cat etc ,,,,,,,

financerulez

What do they say you did? Breach a byelaw or breach their car park terms and conditions? Or do they try and mention both.

If it's passed 6 months, there will be no criminal matters, you won't go to Mag Court, etc. so that is good. Not that Indigo bother anyway - they just hit and hope, like in your case.

Recently PPCs have been trying to blend criminal law into civil law, so there is a question of whether they might have a civil claim against you as you've admitted to them you were the driver. Could be helpful for us to see their wording on their original PCN/correspondence. Never admit to being the driver! Haha.

1. It may be helpful to give them your new address even though it means they'll have your address, you don't want to miss a LBC. I would avoid calling them, either set up a new email and do it from there, or write to them. Try and get a response acknowledging you've moved.
2. Without knowing more about their terms and conditions for this car park, hard to say. Photo of the car park t&cs?
3. You won't go to court and you won't lose.
4. Civil law allows cases to be heard within 6 years of incident. You're not clear because it's unclear what they are trying to pursue you under. When you post the original correspondence we'll see (hopefully) and it will likely need a complaint to the DVLA for Indigo blending criminal and civil law again.

You're in a pretty good position, so feel confident

Fruitcake

You have appealed.
They have failed to provide you with access to an independent appeal, which is yours by right in accordance with the Alternative Dispute Resolution Act 2015.

I would ignore this and then write to them once the six months is up stating that as this is a bylaws case it is now statute barred. Any further contact from them other than to say this matter is closed will be considered as harassment, or word to that effect.

failedcommuter

14 days, as it happens I already missed this deadline due to the letter being forwarded from my old address

No threat to my pets / children as of yet - assume this is simply due to the early stage of their threat game though

The_Deep

If they (or the TOC) wish to take out a private criminal prosecution, if they only have two weeks before it times out, they had better get their skates on, meanwhile, please read this one I made earlier.

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences.

Parking Eye, COM, Smart,s and a smaller company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They nearly always lose) and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.

The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.

Umkomaas

1. The letter are being sent to an incorrect address currently (I moved about 2 weeks ago), and though it is great not having to receive them, I do not want to miss an LBC, however unlikely that may be. Should I contact them saying I no longer live there, and what medium is it best to do so (email / call / letter etc.)?

You do need to inform them of your new address. Do not call them, a phone call isn't worth the paper it is written on. If by emai, send a bcc to another email address of yours (or a friend/relative) to prove delivery. If by letter then free Certificate of Postage from your Post Office counter (not Signed For/Recorded).

2. Can I just tell to take me to court or get lost? The basis of this is that they issued a parking ticket for me "failing to display a valid ticket", however the tickets you buy through their app are valid from midnight to midnight (therefore I had a "valid ticket" just not when the guy checked my vehicle? I find it pretty hard to see a court disagreeing with this as an argument?

My attitude to bullying is to smack a bully on the nose, then see what he's made of. So why not? The worst they can do is to issue a court claim - that will be a first for a railway case!

3. Assume I did go to court, and lost, what would I owe theoretically? The original PCN of £100 + £? in the way of court costs?

Depends - if a Mags Court - up to £1,000. If a County Court - about £200 (original parking charge £100, capped legal costs (max) £50, court filing and hearing fee £50. About it. But neither remotely likely.

4. How much longer are they likely to continue to chase me for, and are there any other key timelines I need to be aware of outside of the 6 month window for a railway byelaw to be challenged in court? I've seen somewhere something about after 6 years, but I'm not clear on what cases this would relate to?

6 months for a byelaws prosecution - but this would have to be by the TOC, not Indigo, and Indigo can't give the TOC your details because of Data Protection issues. 6 years for an alleged debt under contract law.

They are conflating both at the moment, but they just can't switch horses at a whim (cake and eating it). They do this to confuse the motorist to get them to cough up, but I believe they themselves are likely to be in their own state of confusion, with their heads wedged firmly up their own posterior.

I can't see anything, other than ignorable ZZPS/QDR threatening letters, coming your way.

Please read the opening post in this thread created by an absolute newbie. The issue is completely encapsulated by this excellent analysis and proposal for dealing with it.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73963466#Comment_73963466

financerulez

Ah just reread and seen you're still half a month off the 6 months deadline. I would hold off telling them to take it to court until this deadline has passed - but that's just the overcautious in me!

failedcommuter

@financerulez

1. I will send an email cc'ing another account to act as proof I sent

2. Car park is a SE railway station

3. Good !

4. I will upload the letter without personal details shortly for everyone to digest

failedcommuter

@The Deep

I will certainly aid the cause and complain in extremely strong terms to my MP

failedcommuter

Umkomaas wrote: »

You do need to inform them of your new address. Do not call them, a phone call isn't worth the paper it is written on. If by emai, send a bcc to another email address of yours (or a friend/relative) to prove delivery. If by letter then free Certificate of Postage from your Post Office counter (not Signed For/Recorded).


My attitude to bullying is to smack a bully on the nose, then see what he's made of. So why not? The worst they can do is to issue a court claim - that will be a first for a railway case!


Depends - if a Mags Court - up to £1,000. If a County Court - about £200 (original parking charge £100, capped legal costs (max) £50, court filing and hearing fee £50. About it. But neither remotely likely.


6 months for a byelaws prosecution - but this would have to be by the TOC, not Indigo, and Indigo can't give the TOC your details because of Data Protection issues. 6 years for an alleged debt under contract law.

They are conflating both at the moment, but they just can't switch horses at a whim (cake and eating it). They do this to confuse the motorist to get them to cough up, but I believe they themselves are likely to be in their own state of confusion, with their heads wedged firmly up their own posterior.

I can't see anything, other than ignorable ZZPS/QDR threatening letters, coming your way.

Please read the opening post in this thread created by an absolute newbie. The issue is completely encapsulated by this excellent analysis and proposal for dealing with it.

1. I will inform them of my change of address via email

2. Before asking them to take me to court for the dispute to be resolved, is it worth asking them to clarify their authority & claim against me? I could do this in the aforementioned email when I change address, else I could do it on the following reply in order to string out the next couple of weeks to be clear of the byelaw issue?

3. I read the excellent post, I just wanted to clarify a few specifics in my case since I know I f'd up some of the process by conceding that I was the driver

I will upload a word-for-word version of the transcript very shortly for all to see