Fiance dismissed for gross misconduct

Masomnia

TELLIT01 wrote: »

Trying to use a defence of "Other people have done the same thing" is no defence at all. It seems that he doesn't dispute that he left the animals unattended, against policy, so he doesn't seem to have any valid argument against the accusation of gross misconduct. Sorry if that seems harsh but the employer seems to have applied the rules.

It depends on the circumstances. If everyone does it and you're the unfortunate one who gets caught then it's no defence. If the employer allows the behaviour in the same circumstances from others and then dismisses one person the tribunal would ask if this was reasonable and could easily find that it is not.

marlot

mica2 wrote: »

Does anyone have any advice for how he can find another job? He has a potential interview but his last employer has promised excellent references so can he get away with not telling the job about why he was dismissed? Just worried if he does they'll not take him on.

Could he set up his own business? The cost of setting up a dog walking business seems pretty low?

ampersand

Read #10 :-)))

mica2

Thanks you ampersand for your thorough and sensitive reply.
He left the dogs for 3 minutes not hours and yes your point about calling the manager is an interesting one.

I think we will try to speak to CAB although at present we are both feeling shocked and upset to think clearly. He is being given a final written letter shortly which states he has a week to appeal. I'm not sure what the 6 weeks pay means, he wasn't given a gagging clause as far as I know. I do know that his boss is very clued up with the law as he is always speaking to his solicitor about issues.

As for setting up something on his own being in London we can't afford to have a place to take the dogs to which is what his clients pay for. He is in talks though already with a couple of them as they want to help him so maybe it could lead somewhere. Plus I have just started a new job which is only part time as we were about to move in together to save money. I guess I'll have to seek more work if it comes to it. But he was given notice to leave his private rented flat next month so we are having a lot of bad luck at once. I can see how easily it is for people to become homeless.

thanks so much for all your advice everyone.

ampersand wrote: »

mica - replied earlier, but this is a connectivity notspot. Posts often disappear or fail to appear.
#
Your chunky block of text buries key points.

Several posters have missed length of service:
'He has been a very loyal employee having worked there over 5 years without a day off sick', so verbal warning and a full disciplinary Hearing are mandatory.

'...'last month was suspended after he made a couple of silly errors. They are saying it was gross misconduct'

You use the terms 'verbal' and 'disciplinary', but do you understand them as applicable in employment Law?

They didn't give him a verbal warning plus his English isn't great as he is from another country.
Both require investigation via CAB/solicitor, re: apparent legal breach.

'He left some dogs unattended for 3 minutes but they were in sight of other staff members.
-is '3 minutes' correct? or was it 3 hours?

Wouldn't 'asking why he didn't call the site manager to report it,' take at least another 3 minutes, probably more?
#
If the employer is offering 'excellent references', ensure someone with good English at your local CAB sees them too. My advice is that you both attend.

Your fianc! cannot receive '6 weeks' paid leave' if he has been dismissed.
You both need to see and understand what this money is for.

Beware a gagging or 'no unfair dismissal claim' clause, for example.

You must see a CAB Employment Law advisor, who may then link you to a good employment solicitor from their list of firms still offering free 1/2-hour appointments.

Read this carefully:
https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/what-to-do-if-youre-dismissed

Within this, check this:
https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunals

Be aware that this government has *sapped all protective legislation, which is why I urge you to visit a good CAB specialist advisor, especially *if the roof over your heads may become unaffordable. For these *reasons, CAB appointments are also under pressure.

Nonetheless, don't be dissuaded.

I wish you both well.

In view of 'his clients will be really upset and angry, most of them have said they would leave if he left as they value him so highly', don't let this opportunity slip! If they mean it, let them prove it. Start a dog-walking /exercise business, or whatever will work best for you both.

'otherwise we'll be homeless ' - context needed. Roof tied to job/ or income won't cover rent, if private?

'high staff turnover' can be deliberate on employer's part to avoid higher costs of long-term employees, as well as evidence of H&S breaches.
#
Dismissal of a [dearer] long-term employee on a pretext, is one likely shape to this situation.
So, CAB>employment solicitor will help you see where fianc! stands legally.

His upset is clear, yours too. Language misunderstandings must be avoided henceforth, so go together. Also, any calls made by a CAB advisor on your behalf will carry a little more heft.

Always_Alba

I would recommend similar to other posts of speaking to someone about the possibility of appealing. If an expert thinks you have a good chance of success then it's up to you. If however they think the organisation acted correctly and followed required procedures then there would be little point in appealing.
The above will also depend on if your partner wishes to return to the Company.

If he doesn't appeal then in terms of going forward, he should draw up a CV as soon as possible. He doesn't have to say at this point why he left his last job, he could just put the dates of starting and leaving and then for the current date, put something like "looking for new employment".
If he has to complete any job application forms, under reason for leaving, he could put "contract terminated".
If he then gets an interview and is asked why he left his last job,, he should tell the truth. Having been fired last year, I was only ever asked this question on a couple of occasions and so in preparation I had an answer prepared. You do though have to say something that briefly details what happened, that says you regret the incident and that you have learnt from the experience. Do not say stuff like "it was not fair" as a prospective new employer may decide that you really haven't learnt anything.
If you are not asked about why you left your last job, then it's up to you if you want to tell them. However, if your old boss is going to give you a good reference, you may choose not to say anything.
A few other things.
The CAB can advise not only on Employment rights but also Benefits and dealing with a reduction in income. If you make a claim for JSA or Universal Credit, my guess is you will be ok. And If you are not successful in getting a new job immediately, look at doing some volunteering to keep your mind occupied - that can also be handy for a further reference.. And remember that this is not the end of the story, you are only halfway through. Chances are you will get a new job within a short period of time and you can then move on. Good luck.

steampowered

This doesn't sound like gross misconduct to me.

The Employment Tribunals generally only allow gross misconduct dismissals in situations where the misconduct has been deliberate. Carelessness/negligence is almost never enough to constitute gross misconduct (as opposed to regular misconduct).

Gross misconduct is really a very high bar. If the employer dismissed for gross misconduct over this, it does sound like a strong case could be made for unfair dismissal.

The employer could try to claim that they were entitled to dismiss for regular misconduct. Yet, it doesn't sound like any attempt has been made to follow a fair procedure or comply with the ACAS rules on misconduct dismissals.

All in all, it is sounding like there is a legal dispute if he wanted to pursue it.

That said, 6 weeks paid leave with excellent references is not a bad deal. So it could be worth taking. When people are genuinely dismissed for gross misconduct they get nothing.

mica2

Thank so much for all the advice. I'm trying to speak to someone for legal advice. But at the moment he has an interview tomorrow for the most amazing opportunity and it sounds like they are really keen to take him on. So if he gets it I doubt we will pursue legal action as it would be best for us to move forward in a positive way. I just hope he can get around not having to tell the new employer why he was dismissed. Fingers crossed he gets it! And yes he isn't keen on appealing their decision because of their generous offer. It's tricky.

mica2

marlot wrote: »

Could he set up his own business? The cost of setting up a dog walking business seems pretty low?

Unfortunately to do this he would need property and land to have somewhere to care for the dogs. That's what his clients have at the moment so I doubt just talking them for walks in the country would be enough. Hoping the interview he is having tomorrow will go ok as they have said he can bring his own clients and set up his own dog training in his lunch break for 2 or 3 hours a day! Really hope he gets it!!

ampersand

mica2 - We all wish fianc! well for tomorrow's interview with a prospective employer, who is not 'the new employer' as yet.

I just hope he can get around not having to tell the new employer why he was dismissed.

NO, mica2, this is precisely what he must not do.
No evasions, no omissions to direct questions.

Think again WHY 6 weeks' pay-off money has been offered.
The reference is unssen as yet.

[Also, you do not need to repeat answers here - #15 and #19.]

You have been advised re:CAB>poss. employment law solicitor.
This path will be documented officially, as well as by you, which will raise fianc! in any good employer's estimation.

You need this as insurance, for any future/past employer.

Any good employer will be delighted if fianc! can bring clients with him.

For both of you, I say get this to a specialist CAB employment advisor - my turn to repeat myself:-)
You really are babes in the woods with all of this but your innate, hard-working decency shines through. Compliment:-)

'...as they have said he can bring his own clients and set up his own dog training in his lunch break for 2 or 3 hours a day!'

- 3 more areas to question right there!

Any prospective contract [or reference] must be CAB scrutinised.

' I'm trying to speak to someone for legal advice.' - only the official route already described, please.
#
Positive wishes for tomorrow.

shortcrust

steampowered wrote: »

This doesn't sound like gross misconduct to me.

The Employment Tribunals generally only allow gross misconduct dismissals in situations where the misconduct has been deliberate. Carelessness/negligence is almost never enough to constitute gross misconduct (as opposed to regular misconduct).

Gross misconduct is really a very high bar. If the employer dismissed for gross misconduct over this, it does sound like a strong case could be made for unfair dismissal.

The employer could try to claim that they were entitled to dismiss for regular misconduct. Yet, it doesn't sound like any attempt has been made to follow a fair procedure or comply with the ACAS rules on misconduct dismissals.

All in all, it is sounding like there is a legal dispute if he wanted to pursue it.

That said, 6 weeks paid leave with excellent references is not a bad deal. So it could be worth taking. When people are genuinely dismissed for gross misconduct they get nothing.

Really?! I can think of loads of jobs and loads of situations where carelessness and negligence would be very much a case of gross misconduct. I can think of a few where it would land you in prison.