We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum... Read More »
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
DWP: possible reclaim of benefit after death?
Options
gterr
Posts: 555 Forumite
Hi there,
My FiL was in local authority residential care for 4 years before his death in December 2017. He had a stroke, followed by dementia and was mostly estranged from his sons. There was no will, and no PoA (he refused to consider either, even before the dementia took hold), and nobody was set up as DWP Appointee. Apparently, he was in receipt of pension credit but we do not know when this started or who, if anyone, helped with the application, and we have no paperwork at all. When he entered permanent residential care the Local Authority started to send the bills for his care to my husband. We explained repeatedly that we had no access to FiL's money - all of which was benefit income paid directly into his current account. We asked the LA to become Corporate Appointees so that they could take care of FiL's benefit income, and thereby pay his financial contribution to his care fees and make sure that FiL received his personal allowance. They declined to do so. We paid one bill of £2800 in 2016 out of our own money because they had presented the bill to FiL who had become very distressed. We also drip fed money into FiL's care home account so that he had some spare cash for sundries. We could not afford to continue paying his fees, and repeatedly asked the LA to take out Appointeeship. They did not do so, but instead let the bills pile up.
After FiL's death in December my husband became the administrator of his estate and obtained probate. We found a few bank statements, which showed that FiL's bank balance had risen from approx. £10,000 to about £30,000 during the last 5 years, because his PC was still being paid in, but nothing was being paid out.
Not surprisingly, DWP have now sent a letter indicating there may have been a benefit overpayment, and telling us not to disperse the estate until they decide. We have also received a bill of £9000 from LA for unpaid care home fees. If the LA had taken out appointeeship at the start then FiL's care home fees would have been paid as he went along, and his bank balance would not have grown to the level at which he was ineligible for benefits.
Where do we stand? The bank were willing to pay the funeral director's bill direct, before probate was granted, but we have incurred significant additional expense in travelling down to deal with the funeral and other affairs. We have one LA bill of £9000 to pay, and presumably the DWP may claim back most of what was in FiL's account??
We have filled in the form that DWP requested, and have enclosed a covering letter. Do you know what might happen next?
Thanks for your time.
My FiL was in local authority residential care for 4 years before his death in December 2017. He had a stroke, followed by dementia and was mostly estranged from his sons. There was no will, and no PoA (he refused to consider either, even before the dementia took hold), and nobody was set up as DWP Appointee. Apparently, he was in receipt of pension credit but we do not know when this started or who, if anyone, helped with the application, and we have no paperwork at all. When he entered permanent residential care the Local Authority started to send the bills for his care to my husband. We explained repeatedly that we had no access to FiL's money - all of which was benefit income paid directly into his current account. We asked the LA to become Corporate Appointees so that they could take care of FiL's benefit income, and thereby pay his financial contribution to his care fees and make sure that FiL received his personal allowance. They declined to do so. We paid one bill of £2800 in 2016 out of our own money because they had presented the bill to FiL who had become very distressed. We also drip fed money into FiL's care home account so that he had some spare cash for sundries. We could not afford to continue paying his fees, and repeatedly asked the LA to take out Appointeeship. They did not do so, but instead let the bills pile up.
After FiL's death in December my husband became the administrator of his estate and obtained probate. We found a few bank statements, which showed that FiL's bank balance had risen from approx. £10,000 to about £30,000 during the last 5 years, because his PC was still being paid in, but nothing was being paid out.
Not surprisingly, DWP have now sent a letter indicating there may have been a benefit overpayment, and telling us not to disperse the estate until they decide. We have also received a bill of £9000 from LA for unpaid care home fees. If the LA had taken out appointeeship at the start then FiL's care home fees would have been paid as he went along, and his bank balance would not have grown to the level at which he was ineligible for benefits.
Where do we stand? The bank were willing to pay the funeral director's bill direct, before probate was granted, but we have incurred significant additional expense in travelling down to deal with the funeral and other affairs. We have one LA bill of £9000 to pay, and presumably the DWP may claim back most of what was in FiL's account??
We have filled in the form that DWP requested, and have enclosed a covering letter. Do you know what might happen next?
Thanks for your time.
0
Comments
-
They'll calculate the overpayment and send you a breakdown, you can then verify if it is accurate. In the meantime let the LA know that you can't pay their bill until you've received this information from the DWP.
How much are you looking to claim in expenses? You can claim reasonable expenses for administering the estate, but not for usual family things such as attending the funeral.
The overpayment and the care fees will need to be repaid. Just ensure you have all the information in before distributing anything.0 -
The reason they would not take on the roll, is because your FIL had relatives who could have applied for deputyship through the courts, especially after you paid that bill.
You say you have completed probate, which is where the DWP get there info on the value of the estate, so his net estate should only have been about £15k after funeral costs and the to debt to you and the local authority have been taken into account so I would not expect a significant claim from the DWP.
The complexity now is the level of saving, but the DWP should take into account the debt owed to the local authority and yourself, for the payments that were never taken. I would contact the DWP and ask them how to proceed with submitting evidence that this was the case.0 -
BorisThomson wrote: »They'll calculate the overpayment and send you a breakdown, you can then verify if it is accurate. In the meantime let the LA know that you can't pay their bill until you've received this information from the DWP.
How much are you looking to claim in expenses? You can claim reasonable expenses for administering the estate, but not for usual family things such as attending the funeral.
The overpayment and the care fees will need to be repaid. Just ensure you have all the information in before distributing anything.
We are not too worried about the travel costs etc, but are worried that there won't be enough in the estate to pay both the DWP bill for PC overpayment, and the LA bill for care costs.0 -
Well if there isn't enough, that's their tough luck and nothing to do with you.0
-
Keep_pedalling wrote: »The reason they would not take on the roll, is because your FIL had relatives who could have applied for deputyship through the courts, especially after you paid that bill.
Yes, with the benefit of hindsight that might have been the way to go, but we understood from others that deputyship would take many months to acquire and could cost thousands of pounds. The LA didn't at any point say they would not apply for Corporate Appointeeship - they just kept saying they would refer the matter to FiL's social worker, and we never got a formal response.Keep_pedalling wrote: »
You say you have completed probate, which is where the DWP get there info on the value of the estate, so his net estate should only have been about £15k after funeral costs and the to debt to you and the local authority have been taken into account so I would not expect a significant claim from the DWP.
It would be good news indeed if the DWP were minded to take into account the LA's bills.Keep_pedalling wrote: »The complexity now is the level of saving, but the DWP should take into account the debt owed to the local authority and yourself, for the payments that were never taken. I would contact the DWP and ask them how to proceed with submitting evidence that this was the case.
Thank you. We do have the LA paperwork, of course, but little else. The calculation could get very complex if we were to consider what the actual cash flow would have been had the LA bills been paid out of his benefit income in a timely manner, and if FiL had received his Personal Allowance from his benefit income rather than from ourselves. Is this something we should try to prepare ourselves, or would the DWP do this?0 -
This is very puzzling.. Please could explain the payment you made for the care? AFAIK you had no legal liability then nor now. Obviously some of the estate will have to go in care fees but from what you say these should have been met by the local authority. Have consulted a solicitor?Yes, with the benefit of hindsight that might have been the way to go, but we understood from others that deputyship would take many months to acquire and could cost thousands of pounds. The LA didn't at any point say they would not apply for Corporate Appointeeship - they just kept saying they would refer the matter to FiL's social worker, and we never got a formal response.
It would be good news indeed if the DWP were minded to take into account the LA's bills.
Thank you. We do have the LA paperwork, of course, but little else. The calculation could get very complex if we were to consider what the actual cash flow would have been had the LA bills been paid out of his benefit income in a timely manner, and if FiL had received his Personal Allowance from his benefit income rather than from ourselves. Is this something we should try to prepare ourselves, or would the DWP do this?0 -
Yorkshireman99 wrote: »This is very puzzling.. Please could explain the payment you made for the care? AFAIK you had no legal liability then nor now. Obviously some of the estate will have to go in care fees but from what you say these should have been met by the local authority. Have consulted a solicitor?
We don't have any quibble with the financial assessment that was done by the LA when FiL first went into residential care. The cost of the care home place was greater than FiL's income, and his capital at that stage was too low to be taken into account. So, his contribution to his care home fees was the total of his benefit income, minus a weekly allowance of about £25 (Personal Allowance) which should have gone directly to him to pay for sundries like haircuts and toiletries. We didn't want to pay the early bill for his care fees, but after we'd indicated to the LA that we couldn't afford to contribute to his fees, and asked them to take out Corporate Appointeeship, the LA then presented this bill of more than £2000 to my FiL. At that stage he already had dementia, was unable to sign a cheque, and he became very distressed despite our assurances that he needn't worry about the bill. We paid that one to set his mind at rest, and told the LA is was not just pointless but cruel to present him with any more. I do think the LA behaved badly. We felt we were being blackmailed to pay his bills for him. In our mind there was still the option for the LA to take out Corporate Appointeeship, and they didn't at any point tell us that they refused to do so, but they just elected not to, didn't tell us, and let FiL's bills pile up.0 -
Have you lodged a formal complaint against the local authority? I think you need to talk to a solictor and try and get this mess unscrambled.We don't have any quibble with the financial assessment that was done by the LA when FiL first went into residential care. The cost of the care home place was greater than FiL's income, and his capital at that stage was too low to be taken into account. So, his contribution to his care home fees was the total of his benefit income, minus a weekly allowance of about £25 (Personal Allowance) which should have gone directly to him to pay for sundries like haircuts and toiletries. We didn't want to pay the early bill for his care fees, but after we'd indicated to the LA that we couldn't afford to contribute to his fees, and asked them to take out Corporate Appointeeship, the LA then presented this bill of more than £2000 to my FiL. At that stage he already had dementia, was unable to sign a cheque, and he became very distressed despite our assurances that he needn't worry about the bill. We paid that one to set his mind at rest, and told the LA is was not just pointless but cruel to present him with any more. I do think the LA behaved badly. We felt we were being blackmailed to pay his bills for him. In our mind there was still the option for the LA to take out Corporate Appointeeship, and they didn't at any point tell us that they refused to do so, but they just elected not to, didn't tell us, and let FiL's bills pile up.0 -
Yorkshireman99 wrote: »This is very puzzling.. Please could explain the payment you made for the care? AFAIK you had no legal liability then nor now. Obviously some of the estate will have to go in care fees but from what you say these should have been met by the local authority. Have consulted a solicitor?
Anyone receiving LA funded care, still has to contribute from income. With £10,000 of savings the bulk of the income should have been paid to the LA with just a small amount retained to pay for things like newspapers or hairdressing. My mother had a bit more in savings so she was paying £157 a week for her LA funded care, which is slightly more than she was receiving for her state pension payments.
Hopefully the OP can resolve this without the expense of solicitors. Based on the figures the only overpayment should be a very small amount if the PC was paid weekly in advance. The LA bill will certainly have to be paid.
How old was you FIL? If he was mid 80s upwards he would almost certainly be on an indefinite income assessment period, which would mean any changes in savings after the last assesment would not affect PC anyway.0 -
Keep_pedalling wrote: »
How old was you FIL? If he was mid 80s upwards he would almost certainly be on an indefinite income assessment period, which would mean any changes in savings after the last assesment would not affect PC anyway.
He was 88. I did wonder about an income assessment period. We have no paperwork about his benefit claim. Will DWP tell us if we ask? Will the fact that my husband is next of kin and the person administering the estate (intestate) give him the right to the information?0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 351K Banking & Borrowing
- 253.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 453.6K Spending & Discounts
- 244.1K Work, Benefits & Business
- 599K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 177K Life & Family
- 257.4K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.6K Read-Only Boards