Transitional Protection, self employed UC

bornjoyful

Hi 'Keep the Faith'
.
I am in a really similar position to you (minus the landlord/ housing).

I have had WTC with the disability element for 10 years .
To clarify for others reading this-

We both meet condition G -although you began your WTC claim as an 'A' and I began as a 'B'

''You will be treated as qualifying for the disabled worker element if, within the eight weeks before you make your claim (including renewal claims), you were entitled to the disabled worker element by virtue of Condition A, B, E or F. For example, if you move off ESA into work, you’ll not only get the disabled worker element in the first tax year that you are on working tax credit, but you’ll continue to get it in subsequent tax years when you renew your working tax credit. This is because you’ll always count as someone who was on a qualifying benefit when you moved into work.
[/I]
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/tax-credits-extra-money-due-disability
r
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/738887/TC956_Disability_Helpsheet_Eng_2018.pdf

and here is a recent upheld tribunal case on this
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a698a2f40f0b63b5e497922/CTC_2165_2017-00.pdf

This disability element of WTC is NOT the same as the severe disability element of WTC where you would get already get transitional protection.
Due to meeting these conditions we are required to work 16 hrs a week not 30 as most singles would on WTC.

To get severe disability on wtc you also have to receive the highest rate care component of disability living allowance (DLA), the enhanced rate of the daily living component of personal independence payment (PIP), the higher rate of attendance allowance (AA) or the armed forces independence payment (AFIP).

Short of a Freedom of Information request I have no way of knowing how many of us 94 thousand who get the lower disability element of WTC also have lower rates of DLA , PIP or AA which would mean there will be transitional protection for them anyway.


I have been searching and reading everything I can and there is NO mention anywhere in current government papers about what is to happen to the people who are currently getting the disability element of WTC without lower rates of PIP DLA or AA

The SSAC consultation specifically on managed migration and transitional protection is not yet published. I have looked over many organisations submission responses and so far only the CAB have noticed we exist and are asking about transitional protection when the forced migration happens .

CAB have made under recommendation 13 say this-
''The government needs to identify which other groups face significant losses when comparing entitlement under UC to the legacy system. Our analysis suggests this includes some lone parents, working disabled people, disabled carers and parents with a disabled child. Recommendation 13 : The DWP should identify all other groups which
face losses moving onto UC and consider putting in place gateway
conditions which prevent them from naturally migrating without
transitional protection. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Global/CitizensAdvice/welfare%20publications/SSAC%20-%20Citizens%20Advice%20full%20response%20-%20revised%20.

As the consultation is now closed maybe it is too late to have us included.
From what I can see so far we would NOT qualify under the limited capability for work when moved to UC as the conditions are very much like PIPs conditions and therefore although HMRC considered us at a disadvantage in getting a job once we are moved to UC we would lose the extra £ a week from the disability element of WTC and the larger applicable amount from £73.10 to £106.65 for HB would be gone plus the larger disregard of £37.10 from housing benefit.

In my particular situation all the current calculators show me going from a total coming in of £262 a week down to £222 and in addition would we now be expected to look for 35 hours a week and be calculated on the resulting minimum income floor !

I would have to more than double my work hours . As it is not possible to do that in my current job so I would be expected to find another job of 19 hrs a week that fit in around the current job hours or look for one job 35 hours of work at my advancing age in a rural area with no transport .

I have spoken to many organisations about this and everyone says 'no-one knows' but in our case is ANYONE remembering we exist?
don't really know where to start to make 'our ' voice heard as we are so few.
I put in an FOI to find out how many people claim the disability element of WTC who are not on lower rate PIP, DLA or Attendance Allowance

I hope your housing situation works out in your favour and I will keep posting here if I manage to get anywhere with this issue
x

Here_Comes_The_Judge

This isn’t work. It’s a loop hole to stay on Benefits!

pmlindyloo

bornjoyful wrote: »

Hi 'Keep the Faith'
.
I am in a really similar position to you (minus the landlord/ housing).

I have had WTC with the disability element for 10 years .
To clarify for others reading this-

We both meet condition G -although you began your WTC claim as an 'A' and I began as a 'B'

''You will be treated as qualifying for the disabled worker element if, within the eight weeks before you make your claim (including renewal claims), you were entitled to the disabled worker element by virtue of Condition A, B, E or F. For example, if you move off ESA into work, you’ll not only get the disabled worker element in the first tax year that you are on working tax credit, but you’ll continue to get it in subsequent tax years when you renew your working tax credit. This is because you’ll always count as someone who was on a qualifying benefit when you moved into work.
[/I]
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/tax-credits-extra-money-due-disability
r
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/738887/TC956_Disability_Helpsheet_Eng_2018.pdf

and here is a recent upheld tribunal case on this
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a698a2f40f0b63b5e497922/CTC_2165_2017-00.pdf

This disability element of WTC is NOT the same as the severe disability element of WTC where you would get already get transitional protection.
Due to meeting these conditions we are required to work 16 hrs a week not 30 as most singles would on WTC.

To get severe disability on wtc you also have to receive the highest rate care component of disability living allowance (DLA), the enhanced rate of the daily living component of personal independence payment (PIP), the higher rate of attendance allowance (AA) or the armed forces independence payment (AFIP).

Short of a Freedom of Information request I have no way of knowing how many of us 94 thousand who get the lower disability element of WTC also have lower rates of DLA , PIP or AA which would mean there will be transitional protection for them anyway.


I have been searching and reading everything I can and there is NO mention anywhere in current government papers about what is to happen to the people who are currently getting the disability element of WTC without lower rates of PIP DLA or AA

The SSAC consultation specifically on managed migration and transitional protection is not yet published. I have looked over many organisations submission responses and so far only the CAB have noticed we exist and are asking about transitional protection when the forced migration happens .

CAB have made under recommendation 13 say this-
''The government needs to identify which other groups face significant losses when comparing entitlement under UC to the legacy system. Our analysis suggests this includes some lone parents, working disabled people, disabled carers and parents with a disabled child. Recommendation 13 : The DWP should identify all other groups which
face losses moving onto UC and consider putting in place gateway
conditions which prevent them from naturally migrating without
transitional protection. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Global/CitizensAdvice/welfare%20publications/SSAC%20-%20Citizens%20Advice%20full%20response%20-%20revised%20.

As the consultation is now closed maybe it is too late to have us included.
From what I can see so far we would NOT qualify under the limited capability for work when moved to UC as the conditions are very much like PIPs conditions and therefore although HMRC considered us at a disadvantage in getting a job once we are moved to UC we would lose the extra £ a week from the disability element of WTC and the larger applicable amount from £73.10 to £106.65 for HB would be gone plus the larger disregard of £37.10 from housing benefit.

In my particular situation all the current calculators show me going from a total coming in of £262 a week down to £222 and in addition would we now be expected to look for 35 hours a week and be calculated on the resulting minimum income floor !

I would have to more than double my work hours . As it is not possible to do that in my current job so I would be expected to find another job of 19 hrs a week that fit in around the current job hours or look for one job 35 hours of work at my advancing age in a rural area with no transport .

I have spoken to many organisations about this and everyone says 'no-one knows' but in our case is ANYONE remembering we exist?
don't really know where to start to make 'our ' voice heard as we are so few.
I put in an FOI to find out how many people claim the disability element of WTC who are not on lower rate PIP, DLA or Attendance Allowance

I hope your housing situation works out in your favour and I will keep posting here if I manage to get anywhere with this issue
x

If I am reading this correctly I believe you are saying that you think you will lose money when you are transferred to UC under managed migration.

Why do you think that you will not be entitled to transitional protection?

Am I missing something?


Why do you think you would not qualify for limited capability for work. The qualifying conditions are quite different to those for qualify for PIP. PIP is about your daily needs and ESA is about your ability to work.

bornjoyful

I don't believe it!
I put in an FOI to HMRC and got rejected as they said it wold cost too much to work out how many people with the disability element of WTC were not also on PIP or DLA

BUT

The DWP answered my question!!

Seems like everyone being migrated to universal credit WILL get transitional protection.
They haven't said whether those doing 16 hrs with the disability element will be expected to work 35 hours but they have said the amount of benefit awarded will not be less

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/disability_element_and_condition_2#comment-86220

Icequeen99

bornjoyful wrote: »

I don't believe it!
I put in an FOI to HMRC and got rejected as they said it wold cost too much to work out how many people with the disability element of WTC were not also on PIP or DLA

BUT

The DWP answered my question!!

Seems like everyone being migrated to universal credit WILL get transitional protection.
They haven't said whether those doing 16 hrs with the disability element will be expected to work 35 hours but they have said the amount of benefit awarded will not be less

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/disability_element_and_condition_2#comment-86220

I'm pleased they answered the question, but looking at your earlier post it seems you are conflating two separate issues. It has always been clear that people in your position would get transitional protection. But that just means that you will receive a top-up so that you roughly get the same when you transition across to UC. After 12 months on UC, the Minimum Income Floor will apply, transitional protection won't protect you from that and it will be eroded over time.

The examples you mentioned in your post were around people who will be worse off under natural migration. They have put something in place to stop people who get the severe disability premium in other benefits (not tax credits) from transitioning naturally, they haven't done that for someone in your position.

IQ

tantriclady

Just to say Hi and that I am in almost identical position (except I am an owner occupier).


Having scoured all available sources and read up on the original Acts (I couldn't quote them but have them somewhere) my conclusion is this (today!):


1. Transitional Protection will be until a change of circs for us. This TP is a "TP Top Up" on UC basic amount. This should continue until a Change of Circs arises but, the govt are trying to limit this to 12 months - the jury is out as to implementation of which policy choices they have. There will be further legal challenges I believe. I am confident on minimum 12 months currently.



2. A change of circs could be construed as earnings threshold being exceeded in a month if gross income you receive (net of tax but before expenses) creates a situation where the claim is closed. You would need to check the amount of this as HB would be relevent as your "applicable amount" in the assessed period. This is complicated and I can explain more if required. Basically, for example, you get paid £1300 and your "assessed amount" is £450 but the expenses you pay for say trading equipment 3 monthly is not due yet so you end up with a net "surplus of earnings". If the claim closes (which it can do monthly, you would need to do a rapid reclaim the next day on 1st day of new assessment period). They can say this is a change of circs (new claim).



3. MIF is now delayed for 12 months for all new managed migrated tax credit claimants. So that's some relief for now.



4. MIF is calculated at the amount you had your last Fit Note from GP saying the hours you can work (they might ask for a new one - it wouldn't surprise me - be prepared). So, for example, 16hrs x 7.83 (Min Wage) = £125.28pw or annual (disregarding holidays considered as "normal" i.e. 6 weeks) is 46 weeks x £125.28 = £5726.88 pa. This gives a monthly MIF figure as: £480.24. There is conflicting info as to whether this figure is net of expenses or gross income (one assumes that as its min wage thats used, they mean for it to be gross income before expenses but I have seen athoritative info saying that it's net of expenses as a self-employed person has these over what an employed person would and this would be worth arguing. I can find no legislation regarding the calc of this for SE people and the detail has prob not been drafted yet). I would expect and assumed myself in my calcs this to be net of expenses.



5. The roll out to us will be much later on as we are complicated !!!!!!s when it comes to UC! I'm looking at late 2022 earliest.


6. I am planning to even out my expenses to divide over each month as much as possible. So that means any equipment I need (such as a camera I use for my work bought every 3 years for about £300) I will have to get on credit to pay by DD monthly to even out monthly "income" fluctuations. Or time my purchase if poss to months where I have "surplus income" to prevent ending the claim.


7. I cannot find and have not seen anywhere yet regarding sick time off or unpaid leave time off work and how UC deals with this. Currently under WTC, 6 months sick and 1 month unpaid leave are allowed and bring down our overall annual income for WTC calculation purposes. So if your illness is preventing you from work, this may lower your annual MIF under UC. No details I can find on this yet. This might get interesting if say in February you are ill for 3 weeks, but thats not applied until March on the UC system. It could be applied retrospectively and the Feb period reassessed with a lower MIF and so creating a higher UC award (! which is like getting sick pay then!) or not applied to the MIF which means the MIF amount kicks in and your paultry earnings for that month (say £150) count as a loss. Losses can be carried forward but I won't go into this as there is plenty of info about. Needs a closer look overall. But getting the MIF down is the key esp as SSP not payable if ill so we would have no opportunity to gain any income if sick (even ESA would likely be Contrib based and count as income and probably count as change of circs although they would try and push for a claim to be made as thats outside UC so ending the UC claim). If no NI Class 4 for contributions for ESA Contrib then ESA Income related is inside UC and I have not seen how MIF would be affected if you can't actually work but are still self-employed.



8. My conclusion overall is that under MIF (me and you I think) will be in fact - too poor to get Universal Credit - which is a great headline but the reality will be very grim. Having done an online calc - my monthly income currently including WTC is £945 but under UC will be £525 as no UC payable. My MIF would be £750.37. So I earn £525 but MIF would be £750 and my assessed threshold for entitlement of UC is something like £371 so no money for me payable. This then means that I will be liable probably for full Council Tax at an extra £70pm as well. I have fiddled with the calculator and I would be equally worse off if I gave up my business at that stage and earned £50 per week working 1 day instead of the 4 days I currently do in a worthwhile business which is providing a service and supports my existence. I would then be on the same income under UC (working much less) and have to do the mandatory jobsearch etc at Jobcentre - for what overall purpose?? I would be creating additional expense to the nation in keeping me on the semi-dole! They are CREATING unemployment. It makes nil sense.


9. Changes to invoicing and payment of income to even out monthly incomes will have to be enacted.


10. In answer to a point raised earlier regarding capability to work - from what I can see, you are not assessed for this necessarily as an ESA claimaint is. This is not clear whether at migration you are invited to a WRAssessment or just submit a GP note etc. I saw no mention of this at the Gateway Assessment protocol for managed migration claimants. It just tells of looking at job/role/business.


Maybe Brexit is the only answer! That way with labour shartages, general chaos in govt, looming general election - something might significantly change for us as they realise that increasing the dole queue, reducing peoples incomes and making wages too low to come off the dole (for HB claimants) will make Brexit even more of a nightmare. I'm just keeping my head down and hoping that UC is kicked out of the park for me until about 2025!!



Oh and there's also a load of complicated cobblers about ending WTC (mid-year) and finalising accounts ready for UC during the managed migration. This, it seems, inherently creates an overpayment of WTC (because you have an annual entitlement of WTC) so its all recalculated and finalised (how? mid year) and then any surplus of WTC overpayment is put onto your UC threshold or added as an amount to your income figure. This is all done wrong and I cannot see how they will square it without it ending up in our suffering!


But...we should keep this thread open for those of us in this group and how all the coming changes affect us and how we can mitigate these where possible as they arise.

tantriclady

Re: WTC with disability premium and Transitional Protection: (from Select Committee recommendation):


"
41.We recommend the Department carry out and publish by March 2019 an assessment of the impact of removing the disability premia from Universal Credit for new claimants. It should include in this an assessment of the costs and benefits of introducing a “self-care” amount in Universal Credit, paid at the same rate as the Care component to claimants who would have been eligible for disability premia. It should also include clear worked examples of the financial support that disabled people claiming different benefits (including disability premia and tax credit disability additions) under the legacy system will receive under Universal Credit."


So March is the deadline.

45002

tantriclady


Starting a new thread of your own would be easier



https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=139








....