The north/south divide

GreatApe

michaels wrote: »

But you don't rent from the bank, you have to pay back the capital too so although capital repayments are savings - they may be a very large 'forced saving' leaving little to live on.

I still say buying a house for half of what it probably would cost to build it once you include the infrastructure is definitely a bargain and it would be impossible for average houses to be that cheap on none would ever get built.

Could MEW at each fix renewal

Houses can get built even If homes cost below reinstatement value
People would just have to accept that their new home value falls 20% the moment they walk in, the same way that a new car falls about 20% the moment it is driven and becomes second hand. So would people buy new homes knowing they will suffer a 20% hit? Well maybe not smart people but plenty of people seem to be willing to buy £50k cars just to show off so plenty of dumb money about.

Also the social sector seems not to care about economics. For instance in the 1990s in London the lower end properties were selling for less than cost a lot less than cost but the social landlords were still building at cost even though they could have simply bought homes off the market at below cost.

Also costs themselves move with prices.
A home that costs £150k to build today might cost only £100k to build in an excess homes environment. The builders would just get more efficient nothing like losses to concentrate business minds at trimming fat or deploying new construction methods. Of course wages for the sector would fall too or perhaps just not keep up with inflation

The amazing fact that my mind can barely process is how much more housing the Germans have yet their homes are not bear zero value. They have about 40% more hosuong per capita than we do. Imagine I said we wake up tomorrow and find out that magically 10 million additional homes exist. My thought would be that housing would be almost free it would crash 90-99% but in Germany homes are often more expensive than in the UK. Birmingham is have the price of Berlin. Düsseldorf is half the price of Doncaster. Really in comparison the UK seem down right cheap. London is in the news all the time but outrmaide of London property is too cheap

The one truism seems to be people simply want more and more housing.
This seems to make sense if food gets cheaper we don't need to eat more
If our income goes up we don't need to buy more cloths.
But almost everyone would really like more hosuong space and higher spec housng.

GreatApe

zagubov wrote: »

By and large, down south, masses of people can't afford to buy.

Loads of people are renting. living in digs, lodging with others, renting rooms, renting out rooms. flat-sharing, subletting. None of these has enough space or security of tenure, and even home-owners don't have room to swing a cat.

This is simply factually incorrect

We have more residential floorspace per capita than ever

Home prices are almost irrelevant most homes are just recycled. £200 billion flows annually from old to younger a sum equal to about 1 million homes for free each and every year

It is true that some people especially in London can not afford a lot of housing but that is looking at the most expensive city in the nation and often looking at people in the bootom fifth in terms of wealth and income.

GreatApe

Oh brother I just spent about twenty minutes watching a ted x talk by some lefty economists about how a land value tax is needed as landlords unfairly benefit from land value uplift thanks to societies work and they just sit back and coin it in

What came to my mind is that you can buy a Victorian terrace in a lot of UK towns and cities for about build cost if not less than build cost. That means these homes are worth less today than they were when they were built 100 years ago. Back then they were worth cost now they are worth less than cost.

London is distorting the media heads
And our media and universities and 'think tanks' (brings vomit to the moth just typing it) seem to be so dim it is saddening

PasturesNew

In the South West it's warmer/warmest .... which just translates as "it bl00dy rains all the time" ... and, West is very windy. There's not much "outdoor lifestyle" when it's wet and windy.

Be careful what you wish for ..... in case you get it.

steampowered

This map shows how salaries vary across the country: https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/11/24/1322127188757/Heat-map-wages-002.jpg

The average salary in the South is a bit higher than in the North (though this often isn't enough to offset higher housing costs). That isn't always the case in the public sector - this might mean that your "real" salary as a nurse in Liverpool is higher than it would be in Suffolk.

Pennywise

michaels wrote: »

I would note that 70k is below build cost which suggests a pretty depressed, non-sustaining, local economy.

Not in the poorer areas of the country because wages are cheaper, materials are cheaper, etc. Simple economics of supply and demand - prices come down if there are fewer people able/willing to pay higher prices. For example, I can still get a plumber (qualified, gas safe registered etc) to do a call out for a leaky pipe for £20 all in. "Darn Sarf" they'd want a hundred for just the call out then time/materials on top.

westernpromise

Pennywise wrote: »

Not in the poorer areas of the country because wages are cheaper, materials are cheaper, etc. Simple economics of supply and demand - prices come down if there are fewer people able/willing to pay higher prices. For example, I can still get a plumber (qualified, gas safe registered etc) to do a call out for a leaky pipe for £20 all in. "Darn Sarf" they'd want a hundred for just the call out then time/materials on top.

Yep. Tradesmen round my way don't need to see the job to price it,. They just need to know where it is. And then it's five grand. It doesn't really matter what it is. Replace two windows? Five grand. Put up a garden shed? Five grand. Replaster a bedroom? Five grand.

System

I would note that 70k is below build cost which suggests a pretty depressed, non-sustaining, local economy

I would tend to disagree. Surely with lower house prices we have more disposable income. We go out more we buy more and thus we are spending more on the local economy??

Theres certainly nothing depressing about Liverpool. I love the city.

GreatApe

Pennywise wrote: »

Not in the poorer areas of the country because wages are cheaper, materials are cheaper, etc. Simple economics of supply and demand - prices come down if there are fewer people able/willing to pay higher prices. For example, I can still get a plumber (qualified, gas safe registered etc) to do a call out for a leaky pipe for £20 all in. "Darn Sarf" they'd want a hundred for just the call out then time/materials on top.

Materials are not cheaper maybe marginally but not much at all

Yes prices of new builds might come down but not to £70,00
Looking on rightmove for a very wide search area build new build prices just south of £2,000/sqm
Very basic finishes and in the cheapest parts of the country so you are looking at £160,000 for a 80sqm property maybe you can get down to £130,000 if you cit your business operating profit to zero and push down wages of tour staff somewhat. So £70-100k for a terrace is a bargain

GreatApe

tessiesmummy wrote: »

I would tend to disagree. Surely with lower house prices we have more disposable income. We go out more we buy more and thus we are spending more on the local economy??

Theres certainly nothing depressing about Liverpool. I love the city.

Houses are not consumables its not like food or fuel where cheaper equals better.

Houses are fixed capital and most Brits get housing for free. So having a free house in the north or a free house in the south means the economy is more or less the same. South is better as wages are higher.

Historically the south has been much better over the last 20 years. Sire houses cost more to buy but they have gaines more than inflation so over the last 20 years homwonwera have gained not lost in the SE