Not paid any tax for 5 years. Help

hgvdriverhelp

Hi everyone i am new to the forum and joined for some advise.
I have been a lorry driver for almost 20 years and i have always been an employee paying tax and national insurance.
In the recession of 2011 i lost my job and there was very little work for HGV drivers as big companies would not set on.
I joined an agency and started to get regular work but then every agency in my area seemed to be sticking to an agenda to only give work to self employed contractors and gave the most work to Limited Company drivers.
I can see why they did this now, the blue chip companies basically didn't want to pay any tax and it was wrong but thousands of us were in a way forced to work like this or we couldn't provide for our families .

I was one of the first people to sign up with 'Think Accounting' you may have seen these in the news of late as they stole millions of pounds from drivers in VAT and ran away but the BBC missed the whole point, these drivers just like me should never have been a limited company in the first place!
Most people i worked with back in 2011 did the same job day in day out working for the same company but think accounting made these people just like me a Limited Company making us responsible for the taxes (i only found this out last year)

After watching the BBC program HMRC were making the drivers pay thousands back and to this day i have heard nothing being done to track down Think Accounting.

OK, please bare with me because the story gets much worse, in 2013 the very agency that forced us to use think accounting started laying us off so we needed to find work else where, the big problem was all though we were set up as directors of limited companies - we new nothing about how to deal with the paperwork and didn't even have business bank accounts (i'm just a driver i am not a business man)
Think accounting left me in a world of stress that made me very ill and it cost me thousands to do the first years books for that company and thousands more were due in 2014 because i could not get the paperwork from Think Accounting .

By 2014 virtually every agency in my area only set on Limited Companies so a friend of mine advised me to set up a new one and use an agency that deals with all the invoices and paperwork for you.
He also advised me to go VAT registered for that company as i would be about £100 a week better off!

So i have been working with thousands of other drivers for the same company now until this year, i have done the same job in the same place with the same shift pattern i did when i was an employee but this time i have been made to buy my own uniform (with there name on) and book holidays two weeks in advance. we don't get sick pay obviously but the biggest problem was we have never been given a pay rise because nobody can join a union of have a say in it.

On the 9th of may last year my Limited Company bank account was frozen, i thought this was to do with Think Accounting being crooks but i was wrong . My new company was just struck off the register and i wasn't even given any warning ? for what reason i didn't know but i was told by the bank that i could appeal the decision ?

I rang the agency i worked for and they told me it was strange but there was no reason i couldn't set up another company- i wasn't sure how to do this so i got one of the Polish Lads i worked with to help me.

I went into the bank, opened an account, and carried on working like before.

In January this year i had a big fall out with the agency i worked for as they were trying to force me to drive tired , when i told them i didn't want to do a 13 drop run they basically sacked me.

So now after all this time i need to find other work BUT i have a huge problem, i have been asked who my accountant is and i thought that the company i worked for did all this for me?
I have never given an Invoice to this company, did my timesheet's once a week and got paid.

I have now found out that i haven't paid a penny tax since 2013, nor have i paid any national insurance , nor have i paid any vat . This is twice this has happened to me now and i am now into my Third Company that now obviously has no books since it was started in OCT 2017

I honestly don't know what to do because if i am not self employed i will not get any work in my area.
I need to feed my family and i really hoped to get back together with my Ex this year but i am so afraid to tell her about this mess.

All i wanted to do was work, i am not a business man nor do i pretend to be like a lot of those guys the BBC questioned made out to be.

I feel i have been robbed by some of the biggest companies in this country and fear i have now been made responsible for there greedy agendas .

So yes i am here for help, please don't brand me as a tax avoider as i have always worked and paid what i owe but in the last five years these people have paid nothing for my contributions to the business tax system and unknowing to it now looks like it's my fault which it isn't because i don't understand a thing about how companies work. i obviously owe thousands now which i clearly do not have.

I need to work to provide for my family but at the same time i'm not sure if i am prepared to sit back and take this on the chin like those drivers on the BBC program.

Those drivers were pretending to be business men and they are clearly not, i understand why they lie (to keep money coming in ) but if i really do owe thousands i feel it should be paid by the companies who have made myself and thousands of other drivers like me get into this mess.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Mr Pangloss

mumofthetwins

Not sure on your particular situation but I have always played it as straight as possible with HMRC - they scare me lol, I used to rent property and always just completed self assessment online .. my dad has a vat registered limited company and is no business man (he has car boot sale Venues) but his accountant does all the books and sorts the tax side of things .. I think a good accountant would defo be something to check out when you are sorted.
Good luck .. I suppose being PAYE in my jobs does have its bennifits.

Pixie5740

hgvdriverhelp wrote: »

Hi everyone i am new to the forum and joined for some advise.
I have been a lorry driver for almost 20 years and i have always been an employee paying tax and national insurance.
In the recession of 2011 i lost my job and there was very little work for HGV drivers as big companies would not set on.
I joined an agency and started to get regular work but then every agency in my area seemed to be sticking to an agenda to only give work to self employed contractors and gave the most work to Limited Company drivers.
I can see why they did this now, the blue chip companies basically didn't want to pay any tax and it was wrong but thousands of us were in a way forced to work like this or we couldn't provide for our families .

I was one of the first people to sign up with 'Think Accounting' you may have seen these in the news of late as they stole millions of pounds from drivers in VAT and ran away but the BBC missed the whole point, these drivers just like me should never have been a limited company in the first place!
Most people i worked with back in 2011 did the same job day in day out working for the same company but think accounting made these people just like me a Limited Company making us responsible for the taxes (i only found this out last year)

After watching the BBC program HMRC were making the drivers pay thousands back and to this day i have heard nothing being done to track down Think Accounting.

OK, please bare with me because the story gets much worse, in 2013 the very agency that forced us to use think accounting started laying us off so we needed to find work else where, the big problem was all though we were set up as directors of limited companies - we new nothing about how to deal with the paperwork and didn't even have business bank accounts (i'm just a driver i am not a business man)
Think accounting left me in a world of stress that made me very ill and it cost me thousands to do the first years books for that company and thousands more were due in 2014 because i could not get the paperwork from Think Accounting .

By 2014 virtually every agency in my area only set on Limited Companies so a friend of mine advised me to set up a new one and use an agency that deals with all the invoices and paperwork for you.
He also advised me to go VAT registered for that company as i would be about £100 a week better off!

So i have been working with thousands of other drivers for the same company now until this year, i have done the same job in the same place with the same shift pattern i did when i was an employee but this time i have been made to buy my own uniform (with there name on) and book holidays two weeks in advance. we don't get sick pay obviously but the biggest problem was we have never been given a pay rise because nobody can join a union of have a say in it.

On the 9th of may last year my Limited Company bank account was frozen, i thought this was to do with Think Accounting being crooks but i was wrong . My new company was just struck off the register and i wasn't even given any warning ? for what reason i didn't know but i was told by the bank that i could appeal the decision ?

I rang the agency i worked for and they told me it was strange but there was no reason i couldn't set up another company- i wasn't sure how to do this so i got one of the Polish Lads i worked with to help me.

I went into the bank, opened an account, and carried on working like before.

In January this year i had a big fall out with the agency i worked for as they were trying to force me to drive tired , when i told them i didn't want to do a 13 drop run they basically sacked me.

So now after all this time i need to find other work BUT i have a huge problem, i have been asked who my accountant is and i thought that the company i worked for did all this for me?
I have never given an Invoice to this company, did my timesheet's once a week and got paid.

I have now found out that i haven't paid a penny tax since 2013, nor have i paid any national insurance , nor have i paid any vat . This is twice this has happened to me now and i am now into my Third Company that now obviously has no books since it was started in OCT 2017

I honestly don't know what to do because if i am not self employed i will not get any work in my area.
I need to feed my family and i really hoped to get back together with my Ex this year but i am so afraid to tell her about this mess.

All i wanted to do was work, i am not a business man nor do i pretend to be like a lot of those guys the BBC questioned made out to be.

I feel i have been robbed by some of the biggest companies in this country and fear i have now been made responsible for there greedy agendas .

So yes i am here for help, please don't brand me as a tax avoider as i have always worked and paid what i owe but in the last five years these people have paid nothing for my contributions to the business tax system and unknowing to it now looks like it's my fault which it isn't because i don't understand a thing about how companies work. i obviously owe thousands now which i clearly do not have.

I need to work to provide for my family but at the same time i'm not sure if i am prepared to sit back and take this on the chin like those drivers on the BBC program.

Those drivers were pretending to be business men and they are clearly not, i understand why they lie (to keep money coming in ) but if i really do owe thousands i feel it should be paid by the companies who have made myself and thousands of other drivers like me get into this mess.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Mr Pangloss

I sort of understand the issues with Think Accounting but when you set up a limited company by yourself in 2013 and then again in 2017 I don't understand why you wouldn't use an accountant if you were unsure of what you were doing. I've been a contractor with my own limited company and my accountant is worth his weight in gold so my advice is to get yourself a good accountant to try and untangle this mess.

Gazzafatcityboy

Wow. That was a long post . I have had a ltd company before and I will try to help out as best as I can.

Ltd companies

When you setup a ltd company and youre a director then you take on some responsibilities.

First of all, you have to file company accounts with company house. This is a legal requirement. Now in my case I had some personal issues and didnt file the company accounts. I kept my head buried in the sand.

The consequence of doing this are as follows.

1- Your company will be published somewhere (I believe in a business paper); The reason for this is that if you owe people money then they can ask for your company not to be dissolved.
2- Your company will be struck off companies house register meaning your company is not live anymore.
3- If the company is dissolved then any liabilities associated with the company are null and void.
4- There is a mechanism in place where struck off companies with business bank accounts get automatically frozen. I found this out myself when my business bank account got frozen and I couldn't get access to my money.
5- As a director you are not an employee unless you put your name down as the employee.

In theory the way it used to work was you set up a ltd company and as the only employee, most people essentially paid the employee (yourself ) a minimum wage salary. This meant that the employee had to pay minimum tax. NI of course but probably not PAYE. All other profits delivered in shares and dividends from the company.

The ltd company always has to pay corporation tax on its profits. This is sometimes hard to work out especially if there is a lot of monies coming in. However I am guessing in your case it is just one invoice per job and not many outgoings. Corporation tax as a rule of thumb you would say is about 22% (although you can get this down) and you will have to pay HMRC.

First things first. Check all the companies you were director of. Check to see their status, an easy google search can do that. If they are dissolved then it is possible you may not have to owe any money.

For point 2 above, if you owed corporation tax then HMRC should have stopped the company going to a dissolved status.

If they are still live, then HMRC will come after you for the corporation tax owed on the companies earnings. HOWEVER, it is a ltd company so if the company has no assets then it is the company thats liable not yourself personally, you wont lose your house for example. (there are caveats to this for example if you signed personal indemnities)

Best case scenario all the companies are dissolved and all you owe is basic NI. Worst case scenario the companies are open and they owe corporation tax.

I WOULD STRONGLY CHECK WITH AN ACCOUNTANT. You may have not set up your company this way and as an employee be paid a different wage.

National_Debtline

Hi there


It's clear from your post that is a complicated situation and you will need specialist advice on it. I'd recommend you contact Business Debtline who are a free debt advice charity offering specialist help to self employed people. They should be able to help unravel the situation and advise you on your next steps. You can call them on 0800 197 6026 or visit www.businessdebtline.org. Good luck with it all.


Susie
@natdebtline

hgvdriverhelp

Gazzafatcityboy wrote: »

Wow. That was a long post . I have had a ltd company before and I will try to help out as best as I can.

Ltd companies

When you setup a ltd company and youre a director then you take on some responsibilities.

First of all, you have to file company accounts with company house. This is a legal requirement. Now in my case I had some personal issues and didnt file the company accounts. I kept my head buried in the sand.

The consequence of doing this are as follows.

1- Your company will be published somewhere (I believe in a business paper); The reason for this is that if you owe people money then they can ask for your company not to be dissolved.
2- Your company will be struck off companies house register meaning your company is not live anymore.
3- If the company is dissolved then any liabilities associated with the company are null and void.
4- There is a mechanism in place where struck off companies with business bank accounts get automatically frozen. I found this out myself when my business bank account got frozen and I couldn't get access to my money.
5- As a director you are not an employee unless you put your name down as the employee.

In theory the way it used to work was you set up a ltd company and as the only employee, most people essentially paid the employee (yourself ) a minimum wage salary. This meant that the employee had to pay minimum tax. NI of course but probably not PAYE. All other profits delivered in shares and dividends from the company.

The ltd company always has to pay corporation tax on its profits. This is sometimes hard to work out especially if there is a lot of monies coming in. However I am guessing in your case it is just one invoice per job and not many outgoings. Corporation tax as a rule of thumb you would say is about 22% (although you can get this down) and you will have to pay HMRC.

First things first. Check all the companies you were director of. Check to see their status, an easy google search can do that. If they are dissolved then it is possible you may not have to owe any money.

For point 2 above, if you owed corporation tax then HMRC should have stopped the company going to a dissolved status.

If they are still live, then HMRC will come after you for the corporation tax owed on the companies earnings. HOWEVER, it is a ltd company so if the company has no assets then it is the company thats liable not yourself personally, you wont lose your house for example. (there are caveats to this for example if you signed personal indemnities)

Best case scenario all the companies are dissolved and all you owe is basic NI. Worst case scenario the companies are open and they owe corporation tax.

I WOULD STRONGLY CHECK WITH AN ACCOUNTANT. You may have not set up your company this way and as an employee be paid a different wage.

thanks, the think accounting company is still open. I moved away a long time ago and thought all this was brushed under the carpet.
the second company was struck off-didn't here a thing about it but i did move house twice so letters could have been sent to my old addresses (i did leave a forwarding address though)
third company i have been working in the same place for years like i said, i only started this company by advise from the agency that gives me work and it was opened in Oct 2017

hgvdriverhelp

Pixie5740 wrote: »

I sort of understand the issues with Think Accounting but when you set up a limited company by yourself in 2013 and then again in 2017 I don't understand why you wouldn't use an accountant if you were unsure of what you were doing. I've been a contractor with my own limited company and my accountant is worth his weight in gold so my advice is to get yourself a good accountant to try and untangle this mess.

Hi thanks for getting back, I had help setting up my second company because i didn't have a clue about business and i was told think accounting were basically a fraud , i was advised by other drivers to simply set up another company and enrol with the agency i have been using up to christmas . I have been working in the same place since 2013 and was lead to believe that everything was done for me . I simply filled in an online time sheet and they did the rest, i was then paid into my business account and thought that the money was mine .

Alarm bells started ringing when for no reason what so ever my business account was frozen, i went into the bank and they got on the phone for a while then they told me it my company was now 'bona vacantia' - basically my company was struck off and if i wanted to carry on working i needed a limited company account (the agency i work for will not give you work otherwise)

Thats why i opened another company and bank account but again with help from friends who do the same job. i don't have a clue about this kind of thing.

The more i read about this the more i get worried because i should not have to be doing this to get paid.

hgvdriverhelp

Pixie5740 wrote: »

I sort of understand the issues with Think Accounting but when you set up a limited company by yourself in 2013 and then again in 2017 I don't understand why you wouldn't use an accountant if you were unsure of what you were doing. I've been a contractor with my own limited company and my accountant is worth his weight in gold so my advice is to get yourself a good accountant to try and untangle this mess.

I went to an accountant with part of the think accounting paperwork i managed to get. He charged me thousands and told me very little and they were thousands i simply did not have.
By the time my next years accounts were due i asked him for a quote and i could have bought a new car with what he wanted.
I was earning just a little more than what i always earned working as an employee but now i was getting no holidays, no sick pay, nothing . and to top all that the accountant wanted just as much as i should have been paying as a employee.

Like i said it made me ill, i was then advised to make a fresh start, but this time choose a agency that does all the paperwork for you- i was sure i was making the right decision because they had thousands of drivers working for them doing regular mon-fri work.
So that's what i did, i have worked for them for years and it's only now i have left i have come to realise that they are just as bad as think accounting. Its all been lies, they have done nothing apart from pay me and now i have lost years in NI and Tax contributions

Gazzafatcityboy

Okay so I think its slightly clearer.


1- think accounting? Erm were you a director at all for the company? You will need to check that.


2- If the company has been struck off then that's a good thing I believe. You will be more than likely be exempt of corporation tax and VAT. You will still owe NI and Paye if you were an employee as well as a director of the company.


3- For the new company make sure you have the certificate of corporation from companies house, when you need to file (normally 18 months) and get an accountant to file for you.


For NI etc which you haven't paid you can overpay at some point I believe.


Good luck

hgvdriverhelp

Gazzafatcityboy wrote: »

Okay so I think its slightly clearer.


1- think accounting? Erm were you a director at all for the company? You will need to check that.


2- If the company has been struck off then that's a good thing I believe. You will be more than likely be exempt of corporation tax and VAT. You will still owe NI and Paye if you were an employee as well as a director of the company.


3- For the new company make sure you have the certificate of corporation from companies house, when you need to file (normally 18 months) and get an accountant to file for you.


For NI etc which you haven't paid you can overpay at some point I believe.


Good luck

yes i found out i was a director for a company set up by think accounting, I honestly thought this was a payroll company . the company they set up was impossible for me to sort out because they sent me only part of the paperwork i needed to give to an accountant .

The accountant i went to was an absolute shark he charged me £1400 to sort out the first years mess but he didn't tell me 6 months was outstanding , i then learned that the paperwork for a limited company runs for 18 months or something meaning think accounting still had another 6 months that i was unable to account for. I had to open a bank account for the company, i carried on working and then after my second year in 2013 i believe the accountant sent me a bill for £2500 which i clearly didn't have, he said it was because i took directors loans which is not true, i have never taken any loans out and this i can only put down to another trick from think accounting.

Think accounting i was told also kept VAT for about £7000 . basically the whole thing was a headache , i drank heavily with worry and made my self ill. My only option was to put it behind me , i moved house (well flat) then i got some help from a friend who set me up another company.

That 2nd company got struck off 2 years later, I originally thought it was because it was tied into think accounting but it wasn't .
I rang the agency and they told me 'sorry we cannot pay you anymore if you don't have a limited company' and they then advised that i set another one up because think accounting had stopped trading .

This is the company i am stuck with now, i set it up in OCT 2017 (and it's my third one) , without it my work in my area is very slim pickings. hardly any agency will touch me.
full time employment you can forget in my area, hardly anyone sets on and the ones that do are horror stories to work for.
But i have now come to realise now i have left the same agency i have worked for for years that just like think accounting they have made me responsible for a right mess.
I thought they were doing my books like a legal 'payroll' I gave them all my company details and VAT certificate, i thought it was stress free and easy to get work so that's how i have worked for years.

When i got paid, i thought this was my money so i spent it. I am now learning this is far from the truth and to be honest i should not be learning this nor do i want to because i am just a lorry driver-not a business man.

Pixie5740

hgvdriverhelp wrote: »

yes i found out i was a director for a company set up by think accounting, I honestly thought this was a payroll company . the company they set up was impossible for me to sort out because they sent me only part of the paperwork i needed to give to an accountant .

The accountant i went to was an absolute shark he charged me £1400 to sort out the first years mess but he didn't tell me 6 months was outstanding , i then learned that the paperwork for a limited company runs for 18 months or something meaning think accounting still had another 6 months that i was unable to account for. I had to open a bank account for the company, i carried on working and then after my second year in 2013 i believe the accountant sent me a bill for £2500 which i clearly didn't have, he said it was because i took directors loans which is not true, i have never taken any loans out and this i can only put down to another trick from think accounting.

Think accounting i was told also kept VAT for about £7000 . basically the whole thing was a headache , i drank heavily with worry and made my self ill. My only option was to put it behind me , i moved house (well flat) then i got some help from a friend who set me up another company.

That 2nd company got struck off 2 years later, I originally thought it was because it was tied into think accounting but it wasn't .
I rang the agency and they told me 'sorry we cannot pay you anymore if you don't have a limited company' and they then advised that i set another one up because think accounting had stopped trading .

This is the company i am stuck with now, i set it up in OCT 2017 (and it's my third one) , without it my work in my area is very slim pickings. hardly any agency will touch me.
full time employment you can forget in my area, hardly anyone sets on and the ones that do are horror stories to work for.
But i have now come to realise now i have left the same agency i have worked for for years that just like think accounting they have made me responsible for a right mess.
I thought they were doing my books like a legal 'payroll' I gave them all my company details and VAT certificate, i thought it was stress free and easy to get work so that's how i have worked for years.

When i got paid, i thought this was my money so i spent it. I am now learning this is far from the truth and to be honest i should not be learning this nor do i want to because i am just a lorry driver-not a business man.

£1,400 is not an unreasonable amount for an accountant to charge for his (or her) time, especially when your accounts are...shall we say...complicated. You say yourself that you are not a business man and do not seem to be confident sorting out the business end of things yourself. If you can't afford, or don't want, to pay for the services of an accountant then gather all the paperwork you can and contact Business Debtline.