MSE News: 'We need to change your meter'...

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

Spotter wrote: »

Even after Money Saving Expert and Ofgem confirmed that having smart meters installed is not a legal obligation, E.ON continues on sending me emails implying that I am obliged by law to have a smart meter installed in my house. A quote from the email I received on 21 Aug 2018: "Just to remind you, we need to upgrade your electricity and gas meters to our self-reading smart meters". In addition, they imply that I have to call them to justify my refusal. I am not supposed to waste my time calling E.ON to justify why I do not want a product. This sounds like their attempt to convice me that I am legally obliged to have a smart meter installed, and their attempt to put pressure on me to have it installed.

Hello Spotter and welcome to the Forums.

Smart meters are definitely optional and you can reject our offers to have them at any time. As I posted on another thread earlier today, with the continual advances in this technology, we've an obligation to keep checking with customers to see if they've changed their mind. This is particularly the case with significant developments like SMETS2 meters and SMETS1 upgrades. We need to make customers aware of these changes so they can make informed decisions.

We send two types of smart meter letter. One offers an upgrade to smart and the second is where we need to carry out a statutory change as the current meter is nearing the end of its guaranteed lifespan. We've recently added new wording to both types of letter to make it clear smart meters remain optional. If you've received the second letter about a statutory change please contact us as we'll need to replace the existing meter. If you make it clear you don't want smart, we'll fit a traditional classic meter.

Hope this explains Spotter.

Malc

PixelPound

Spotter wrote: »

Even after Money Saving Expert and Ofgem confirmed that having smart meters installed is not a legal obligation, E.ON continues on sending me emails implying that I am obliged by law to have a smart meter installed in my house. A quote from the email I received on 21 Aug 2018: "Just to remind you, we need to upgrade your electricity and gas meters to our self-reading smart meters". In addition, they imply that I have to call them to justify my refusal. I am not supposed to waste my time calling E.ON to justify why I do not want a product. This sounds like their attempt to convice me that I am legally obliged to have a smart meter installed, and their attempt to put pressure on me to have it installed.

Don't call them - you call to book, so if you don't want one why call - just to vent righteous indignation. I get emails from authorised installers too, so e.on isn't unique in this, but if you don't phone to book, you don't get it installed, simples! :rotfl:

TobyJugg2

and they are still doing it despite us quite clearly informing them we DO NOT want and WILL NOT HAVE a smart meter.

Latest try

IMPORTANT
THE METER AT THIS PROPERTY NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

THIS IS NOT A CIRCULAR

yet it is just a circular wanting to fit smart meters

If they turn up will be told to jog on

TobyJugg2

Oh and the named and addressed 'circular says they are 'visiting to arrange an appointment'

- I'll try and remain polite under this harassment, but can't guarantee it.

jamesd

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

with the continual advances in this technology, we've an obligation to keep checking with customers to see if they've changed their mind.

Good that E.ON is keeping consumers informed about changing technology so would you be kind enough to confirm that:

1. E.ON tells customers in the Western Power Distribution area that if a smart meter is installed their individual half-hourly usage and related data will be provided to WPD, whether they continue to be an E.ON customer or not? (Note 1)
2. E.ON tells customers whether their current right to restrict supply of half hourly data to E.ON also applies to WPD getting it and if not, whether and how they can prevent more frequent than monthly data being supplied to E.ON and WPD?
3. That the restrictions can be changed at any time and one distribution network wants it even more frequently? (Smart Metering Implementation Programme: review of the Data Access and Privacy Framework, 22 November 2018)
4. That there are already schemes in test to monitor such things as whether a kettle or oven is being used and if a water pump is installed one second meter reading can determine when you go to the toilet, whether it's number 1 or 2 and if you wash your hands afterwards? (Note 2)

Regrettably for me the direction of travel is clearly towards increasing the privacy and possibly related costs of having smart meters as they exist today. Hopefully awareness will increase leading to removal campaigns and more secure technology.

Note 1: The WPD scheme is a very interesting grid monitoring and management one that's unfortunately undermined by the extremely frequent reading capability built into the meter hardware without consumer control before the meter can disclose the identifiable data.
Note 2: consider Dr Tamara Clelford, Swamphen Enterprise, presentation "The rise and rise of data science" where she describes doing this with a water meter. The toilet had single flush so 1 and 2 couldn't be determined from water flow but might have been inferable via wash or not. Hi Tamara, I'm sure web searches on your own name will bring you here.

Gerry1

Does this mean that, if you have consented to your smart meter data being sent only once per month, it actually sends a whole month's worth of stored half hourly data all at once, rather than just the meter reading in kWh?

The weasel words used by the suppliers suggests that opting for monthly data collection does not change the granularity of the customer's data, merely the delay before it is transmitted.

flyingv

My mum has had several phone calls purporting to be British Gas saying she needs to have her meters changed (she is a BG customer). They said the electricity meter change would be free, but the gas meter change will cost £180. Mum told them she would need this in writing, but I've told her that under no circumstances is she to agree to this. I'm not even sure it's a genuine British Gas call so thought I'd post here to see if anyone else has experienced similar.

jamesd

Gerry1 wrote: »

Does this mean that, if you have consented to your smart meter data being sent only once per month, it actually sends a whole month's worth of stored half hourly data all at once, rather than just the meter reading in kWh?

The weasel words used by the suppliers suggests that opting for monthly data collection does not change the granularity of the customer's data, merely the delay before it is transmitted.

So far as I know there isn't a restriction available to only provide kWh readings like a manual reading.

With current regulation and software in the meters half hourly values will be stored in the meter and that history will be provided whenever the meter is asked to provide it.

The only consumer consent mechanism I know of for the WPD scheme is having a smart meter installed. Then they get your data half hourly whether you want them to or not. In built up areas they are supposed to combine data from many properties sharing the same circuit after they have been provided the individual consumer level data.

E.ON and other suppliers can get half hourly data without consumer consent if they say they think there's possible abuse.

Otherwise providers can get it once a day if there's an opt out for once a month instead. Opt in is supposed to be required for a supplier to request half hourly data. I assume that half hourly opt in will be obtained in the same way as installations are, by deception and incomplete disclosure, like saying it's to allow more detailed presentation of data to you then using it more broadly. (Note 1)

Getting access to your data can be done by any firm that merely claims that you're considering switching.

I'm not aware of anything in the technology that blocks meters from being asked for the latest readings every half an hour and that promptly being passed on.

Note 1: firms are required to offer in-home consumer access devices that can get real time data from the meter whenever they want. No consent needed and nothing sent to providers. For electricity you don't even need a smart meter for this: E.ON has previously provided consumers with versions that use a monitor wrapped around the electricity cable.

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

jamesd wrote: »

Good that E.ON is keeping consumers informed about changing technology so would you be kind enough to confirm that:

1. E.ON tells customers in the Western Power Distribution area that if a smart meter is installed their individual half-hourly usage and related data will be provided to WPD, whether they continue to be an E.ON customer or not? (Note 1)
2. E.ON tells customers whether their current right to restrict supply of half hourly data to E.ON also applies to WPD getting it and if not, whether and how they can prevent more frequent than monthly data being supplied to E.ON and WPD?
3. That the restrictions can be changed at any time and one distribution network wants it even more frequently? (Smart Metering Implementation Programme: review of the Data Access and Privacy Framework, 22 November 2018)
4. That there are already schemes in test to monitor such things as whether a kettle or oven is being used and if a water pump is installed one second meter reading can determine when you go to the toilet, whether it's number 1 or 2 and if you wash your hands afterwards? (Note 2)

Regrettably for me the direction of travel is clearly towards increasing the privacy and possibly related costs of having smart meters as they exist today. Hopefully awareness will increase leading to removal campaigns and more secure technology.

Note 1: The WPD scheme is a very interesting grid monitoring and management one that's unfortunately undermined by the extremely frequent reading capability built into the meter hardware without consumer control before the meter can disclose the identifiable data.
Note 2: consider Dr Tamara Clelford, Swamphen Enterprise, presentation "The rise and rise of data science" where she describes doing this with a water meter. The toilet had single flush so 1 and 2 couldn't be determined from water flow but might have been inferable via wash or not. Hi Tamara, I'm sure web searches on your own name will bring you here.

jamesd wrote: »

So far as I know there isn't a restriction available to only provide kWh readings like a manual reading.

With current regulation and software in the meters half hourly values will be stored in the meter and that history will be provided whenever the meter is asked to provide it.

The only consumer consent mechanism I know of for the WPD scheme is having a smart meter installed. Then they get your data half hourly whether you want them to or not. In built up areas they are supposed to combine data from many properties sharing the same circuit after they have been provided the individual consumer level data.

E.ON and other suppliers can get half hourly data without consumer consent if they say they think there's possible abuse.

Otherwise providers can get it once a day if there's an opt out for once a month instead. Opt in is supposed to be required for a supplier to request half hourly data. I assume that half hourly opt in will be obtained in the same way as installations are, by deception and incomplete disclosure, like saying it's to allow more detailed presentation of data to you then using it more broadly. (Note 1)

Getting access to your data can be done by any firm that merely claims that you're considering switching.

I'm not aware of anything in the technology that blocks meters from being asked for the latest readings every half an hour and that promptly being passed on.

Note 1: firms are required to offer in-home consumer access devices that can get real time data from the meter whenever they want. No consent needed and nothing sent to providers. For electricity you don't even need a smart meter for this: E.ON has previously provided consumers with versions that use a monitor wrapped around the electricity cable.

Hello jamesd and some of what you're asking is an area we're not involved with. I'll tell you what I know and also point you towards a colleague who will be happy to answer the questions I can't.

We collect readings from smart meters automatically on a monthly basis. More frequent collections are solely at the discretion of the customer. We can only take daily or half-hourly readings where the customer has given permission for this to happen.

All information and data stored on the meter is protected by security controls. It can only be accessed by authorised parties with the customer's consent or with licensed permission such as for retrieving meter readings. All accesses to the information are logged to include the identity of the person accessing it as well as the time and date.

With smart meters, data comes to us from the meter via the Data Communications Company (DCC). The sharing of this data with third parties like the Energy Distributors is controlled by our Data Protection Officer. They have overall responsibility for the way we collect and handle personal data. For more information please talk to our Data Protection Officer (contact details are on our website). There's also a lot more information about our Privacy Policy on the website.

Customers can request some or all of the personal data we hold for them at any time. This includes data taken from smart meters.

I'm certainly not aware of any schemes, tests etc to monitor household appliances through smart meters.

Hope this points you in the right direction jamesd.

Malc

Gerry1

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

I'll tell you what I know and also point you towards a colleague who will be happy to answer the questions I can't.

Oh dear, that's a really disappointing answer. And who is the colleague who does know?

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

We collect readings from smart meters automatically on a monthly basis. More frequent collections are solely at the discretion of the customer. We can only take daily or half-hourly readings where the customer has given permission for this to happen.

There's a BIG difference between taking a simple reading at monthly intervals (e.g. October 10000kWh, Novermber 10250kWh) in exactly the same way that a human meter reader would, and a smart meter sneakily uploading a whole month's worth of half hourly data but at monthly intervals. All that copied boilerplate stuff seems to be an industry attempt to deceive us into believing it's the former when it's actually the latter.

It seems the smart meter really is the Spy Under The Stairs.

I hope that Malc or his colleague can prove me wrong.