Need URGENT Advice : Stolen Debit Card

mysteriousgirl

Hi Guys,

I need some advice and assistance frm this site. I hope few of you can assist me wat to do. Infact the advice is needed for my 'father-in-law', who is pretty old.

On Oct 5th, my father-in-law (78yrs old) went for his usual walk to the shopping centre at 11 am. However, he lost his wallet (he believes someone stole it rather). He realised this incident only after he reached home at 13.00. Few key informations was included in his wallet - HSBC debit card** (main one); some cash in wallet ; Sainsbury store card (not really keen on that); his home address and all personal contact numbers (he carrys his personal details, incase something happens to him - ppl know who he is and whom to conatct for emergency !!).

We contacted HSBC bank at 13.30 and adviced them that his debit card was stolen and they cancelled the card over the phone. One key information is that - this is his 1st ever debit card. he rcvd it only one week before. Since my fatherinlaw is very old and is quite new to these advanced technology to debit card and pins. Considering he just rcvd it a week before - he kept the pin number in his wallet. The whole issue starts there....

Although we complained and cancelled to HSBC couple of hours later....the theif has been very fortunate to get all his details - debit card + PIN + all address details. My Inlaw just had a balance of £900 in his account. This is his key account to rcv his pension and all his benefits too. We realised on OCT 5TH tht the person already withdrew £300 frm nearby ATM machine (at 12.20) leaving balance of £600 only for the old man. We also reported the case to Police incase of any ID fradulent activities.

HSBC have adviced there is no way to refund the money, as it was his mistake of keeping the card and pin together. To our surprise, today we got information that Oct 11 a transaction has taken place in a jewellery shop and a shopping for £800 has taken with the card (cancelled on Oct 5th). How is that possible ? HSBC says....the person must have used the card on Oct 5th before 13.30....but the transaction takes few days (7 days ?) to come in the statement. The main info is that - if it did happen like the HSBC says.....the balance in his account was only 600....so how come HSBC agreed for a transaction for £800..?? It's all to vague...and they says, they will liase with police and resolve the case.

Honestly i am not tooo confident the way HSBC customer service responded, and they were trying to make it sound, it was all due to fact PIn was in the wallet too and there is verryy minimal chance of obtaining the money back.

Isnt there any way for us to claim this £300 + £800..?? Considering his age (78); plus the fact all these moneys is his pension savings.....isnt there any way to obtain / refund these cash back from bank..?? (He doesnt have a content insurance either !!)....

PLS HELP....Isnt there any loophole to help him out and obtain his hard earned money..???

molerat

Any losses incurred before being reported is, I am afraid, at the expense of your FIL as he "did not exercise due care" and kept the card and PIN together. The subsequent purchase will be timed and dated. If it was made after the reported loss you may have a case as that amount would have had to be authorised if using an electronic terminal. If done using the old fashioned zipzap machine it should have been authorised but it is down to the retailer and if they can prove they used due care ie the sig matched and other documents were provided (ie what was in the wallet) you will probably be in trouble. As for the 800, 600 + 200 OD limit = 800 ?

Another possible scenario is that the jewellery shop is in on the fraud :eek:

mysteriousgirl

Actually not...he doesnt have any overdrafts in his account..!! only thing i see is that bank authorsed without sufficient funds..!! and their excuse was tht every mid month he gets his pension (in oct it arrived by 12th)...so a day after transaction.

Is there any way to challenge this....considering on the actual day oct 5, he just had 600....and bank should have delcined the transaction then....?

James

I'm very sorry to learn of your father-in-laws (FIL) experience.


HSBC is not complying with the Banking Code in so much as they are holding your FIL liable for transactions made AFTER the loss was reported to them.

Article 12.12.

If someone else uses your card, before you tell us it has been lost or stolen or that someone else knows your PIN, the most you will have to pay is £50.

(I can only presume that you're not liable for ANY losses after you report your card stolen).


There has been several artilces in the press recently whereby consumers are being held liable for PIN misuse I'm sad to say.

Can I suggest to protect your FIL from crooks using his personal details to open new credit card accounts or take out loans you pass him on the information on this web site: www.freeidprotection.co.uk

It's horrible saying only if. But if your elderly FIL had known he could have been issued with a PIN free Card (Chip & Signature). He could still get money over the counter in the Post Office, Banks Branchs' and Cash Back at many retailers, and he wouldn't be in this position.

gt94sss2

James wrote: »

HSBC is not complying with the Banking Code in so much as they are holding your FIL liable for transactions made AFTER the loss was reported to them.

Looking at the Banking Code, it looks as if you have selectively quoted it.

It actually says:

12.11 If you act fraudulently, you will be responsible for all losses on your account. If you act without reasonable care, and this causes losses, you may be responsible for them. (This may apply if you do not follow section 12.5 or you do not keep to your account’s terms and conditions.)

12.12 Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently or without reasonable care, your liability for the misuse of your card will be limited as follows.
• If someone else uses your card, before you tell us it has been lost or stolen or that someone else knows your PIN, the most you will have to pay is £50.

12.5 includes things like:

•Never write down or record your PIN, password or other security information.

• Always take reasonable steps to keep your card safe and your PIN, password and other security information secret at all times.

Hence 12.12 would not apply in this case, as the bank knows the card and PIN were kept together and thus 'without reasonable care'

I think the only thing that can be done is check what time the transaction in the jewellery shop happened and if that was before or after you reported the card lost.. apart from that I guess you could only hope for a goodwill gesture from the bank..

Regards
Sunil

Iamthesmartestmanalive

ts_aly2000 wrote: »

The banks issue these damned Chip&Pin cards to MS sufferers who can barely remember the way from their kitchens to their living rooms.............. And that's when they've been specifically made aware of the issue and that a C&P card is not suitable.

Is your FIL forgettful? Does he have trouble remembering things? You of course made HSBC aware of this? And they told you not to worry and that everything would be fine?

I feel that a bit of economy with the truth may be applicable here. As already mentioned, the banks issue these C&P cards to MS sufferers when they can't remember what day of the week it is.

It's a bit like me lending my car to someone who is blind, and then complaining about the dents. Point; I simply wouldn't do it.

I think that the bank is at fault here, and on several counts. That card should have been cancelled at 13.30, and any further transactions should have required bank referral. They managed it pretty well with my OHs bank cards when he went bankrupt.

Every old pensioner comes out with the same excuse, some will be just, some wont

The fact is if you tell your bank you want a chip and sig card for health reasons you get one

If you dont tell them you dont

If your father can prove his health etc was the reason for the breach the bank will give it back without a fight for PR reasons

Otherwise your FIL has a lengthy battle on his hand and tbh whilst I sympathise why the hell should the banks be liable for this sort of gross neglience?

Iamthesmartestmanalive

As for the latter transaction, if this was processed before the closure, it is valid, regardless of how long it takes to post as the banks are not responsible for posting time

If it was processed after the closure the bank screwed up and he cant be liable

From my reading the bank are saying scenario A has happened

Final question, does your FIL have any medical grounds for carrying his pin?

James

gt94sss2 you are absolutely correct. Everything these days is down to interpretation. Pre Chip and PIN days, it used to be, you wouldn't be liable for any fraudulent transactions AFTER the time you reported your card lost or stolen.

Chip & Signature Cards?????

These cards are provided by card issuers, yet card issuers tell the public nothing about them. Mysteriousgirl you may put this to HSBC, shouldn't my FIL have been told about Chip & Signature Cards. Was it adviseable to issue him with a C&P card.

Your FIL also informed that Bank that he'd written down his PIN. BUT the code also says (open to interpretation). 12.12. If someone else uses your card before you tell us it has been lost or stolen OR that someone else knows your PIN, the most you will have to pay is £50.

Question. How would you know someone else knows your PIN?

Do yout homework before you approach HSBC. Call them up, or vist a branch and ask them where you can find information about Chip & Signature Cards. Tell them that your FIL was honest, about writing his PIN down and he wasn't aware, or had no advice that there was an alternative.

I'd bet they're very reluctant to mention Chip & Signature Cards, if they admit to issuing them at all.

ts-aly2000 is right. Getting a Chip & Signature Card is difficult, and it shouldn't be.

Saying that, all my cards are Chip & Signature, but I do know the right buttons to press.

gt94sss2

James wrote: »

gt94sss2 you are absolutely correct. Everything these days is down to interpretation. Pre Chip and PIN days, it used to be, you wouldn't be liable for any fraudulent transactions AFTER the time you reported your card lost or stolen.

Just out of interest, I've looked up the March 2003 version of the banking code - i.e. before Chip and Pin and it seems to have similar clauses in 12.4 about taking care of your PIN number and not recording it anywhere, and 12.9/10 about not being covered for losses if you acted without 'reasonable care' - i.e. very similar to the current banking code.

As for Chip and Signature cards, they may be more suitable for mysteriousgirl's father in law - given his age and as this seems to be his first debit card of any type!

Having said that, as a HSBC customer, (from memory) I'm sure when I got my last card from them, the booklet explaining how to use the card and change the PIN number to one of your choice, also mentioned the existence of Chip and Signature cards being available for people who had problems using PIN numbers

Regards
Sunil

Alfie_E

mysteriousgirl wrote: »

Is there any way to challenge this....?

Yes. In letting the jewellery shop purchase take the account overdrawn, the nature of the transaction changed. What’s the difference between a credit card and a debit card on an overdrawn account? The answer is not a lot; the law sees them as equivalent. See using plastic cards as credit-tokens. This can limit liability to £50, even in the case of `gross negligence’.

I know that article says ‘up to the extent of its agreed credit limit’. But, HSBC willing let the account go overdrawn. As you’ve said, they could have chosen to decline the card. Now that HSBC can’t use the phrase ‘penalty charge’, they described letting a debit card purchase take you overdrawn as an ‘informal request for an overdraft’, for which there could be an ‘Arrangement Fee’. That sounds pretty agreed to me.

It’s not a perfect outcome, but would limit the loss to just £350.

James

HI Mysteriousgirl.

Is there any news. Has your Father-in-Law been reimbursed for the loss after his card was reported stolen?

Check your Private Messages. You may find it helpful.