Please help: Mis-sold house, who’s at fault?

AdrianC

Rob-123 wrote: »

I didn’t assume, I thought that the building reg document was in place, because the solicitor said ‘our search has revealed a building regulation but due to the age the seller hasn’t provided the document’ is it unreasonable to take it that way?

Is it unreasonable? No. Shrugging-off lack of paperwork for BR sign-off 12 years ago is eminently reasonable - because there's a very good chance it's been lost in the interim, and because there's no realistic risk of come-back if it was never obtained.

A more conservative approach than most house buyers take..? How do you know what approach most housebuyers take when they are actually told that there is no certificate in place..?

Simply because if they didn't, a very large number of houses would be unsellable.

So you’re saying the reason they took a ‘realistic attitude’ by not advising me that they knew there was no certificate, was to save me £100?

On an effectively worthless indemnity policy that wouldn't address your specific concerns anyway? Yep.

But you are still conflating those three separate questions here.
- Should the solicitor have made you more explicitly aware of the lack of sign-off?
- Did the certificate ever get issued?
- Do you have an issue with the insulation in your loft?

Really, the only one of those that's in any way relevant is the third - yet that seems to be the one you're least interested in.

Rob-123

Of course I am interested in the insulation in the bedroom. I’m also interested in fire safety now, and rather worried. I also think that I have paid over the odds because it’s not a 5 bedroom, legally it’s a 4 bedroom with a loft room.

I know a certificate was never issued from speaking to the council.

My main concern is your first point, the solicitor should have made me more aware as I would have told them I wasn’t interested until a final inspection had taken place so I knew if any additional costs would be incurred from work needed.

And also where you say it’s reasonable to shrug off a possible missing certificate, the solicitor has sent me a copy of the search and it clearly states there is no building regaultion certificate so my solicitor was aware of this, it wasn’t a case of not knowing if there was one or whether it had been lost.

Doozergirl

You might be able to get a certificate now.

You can’t just go after the solicitor without knowing what the actual implications are of not having that certificate.

If you get the file from the council, you will see exactly what was planned and how much they know about what has been done. If there have been inspections, there will be notes and maybe even photos.

If you’re interested in what has and has not been done then the file may well be the key. Sometimes people genuinely don’t know they’re supposed to have a final inspection. It would be unusual for people to pay for BR drawings land submit an application to then ignore the whole lot and the conversion not comply.

Fire safety will be obvious. Do you have fire doors creating a protected staircase/route from the loft to the front door? And do you have hard wired smoke alarms in that hall?

Doozergirl

I’m not one for speculation l, but if I start joining up dots here, we have a BC application, no completion certificate and an electrical installation certificate from 2016 for something carried out a decade before.

It’s pretty common for builders and clients to fall out. Homeowners often don’t know what is required with building regs. Builders can use the certificate and electrical certificates to hold people somewhat to ransom over final payments

If I was going to have a punt, your vendors were missing the electrical certificate to get sign off. They’re managed to get someone to sign it off upon sale, hoping that it concludes what was required.

We’ll see.

ReadingTim

Doozergirl wrote: »

Fire safety will be obvious. Do you have fire doors creating a protected staircase/route from the loft to the front door? And do you have hard wired smoke alarms in that hall?

The only obvious thing about "fire safety" is the obvious scaremongering. It's a complete red herring unless you like deep frying chips in a pan on the cooker, smoking in bed, or generally have a history of pyromania.

Furthermore, with exception of smoking in bed, a fire is hardly likely to start in the loft, especially given the previous 12 inferno-free years.

DaftyDuck

I recently bought an infrared thermometer from Amazon. Brilliant tool, and I have, over the last three weeks, learned so much about cold spots and insulation.

The cheap ones are good enough, and I believe I saw one on the CPC website for even less.... Might be worth the tenner they can be had for.

Doozergirl

ReadingTim wrote: »

The only obvious thing about "fire safety" is the obvious scaremongering. It's a complete red herring unless you like deep frying chips in a pan on the cooker, smoking in bed, or generally have a history of pyromania.

Furthermore, with exception of smoking in bed, a fire is hardly likely to start in the loft, especially given the previous 12 inferno-free years.

Indeed, the main focus of the regs is to help occupants out of the loft when there is fire elsewhere.

Most people who have multi-storeys compliant with the fire escape regulations don’t shut the doors to all their rooms. Renders the whole idea useless!

teneighty

AdrianC wrote: »

Is it unreasonable? No. Shrugging-off lack of paperwork for BR sign-off 12 years ago is eminently reasonable - because there's a very good chance it's been lost in the interim, and because there's no realistic risk of come-back if it was never obtained

I disagree with this. If paperwork is lost copies can be obtained or at least the public records checked for its original issue.

Failure to provide evidence of statutory approvals should be a massive alarm bell that the work should undergo more detailed investigation. It is usually a sign of vendor who either did not know about the statutory regulations or didn't care and even worse a builder who deliberately avoided official scrutiny.

A loft conversion undertaken without inspection could contain serious fire precaution risks, or inadequate structural work, unsafe electrics, poor insulation etc. etc. Whether the Council is going to take enforcement action is the least of your worries.

teneighty

ReadingTim wrote: »

The only obvious thing about "fire safety" is the obvious scaremongering. It's a complete red herring unless you like deep frying chips in a pan on the cooker, smoking in bed, or generally have a history of pyromania.

Furthermore, with exception of smoking in bed, a fire is hardly likely to start in the loft, especially given the previous 12 inferno-free years.

So tumble driers never catch fire in the kitchen, potentially blocking the one and only escape route from the childrens bedroom in the loft because the builder did not fit a fire door on the kitchen or bedroom or fit any mains smoke alarms? They've probably got about 10 minutes before the smoke kills them.

But hell, who cares about a copies of silly things like Building Regulations approvals.

You have probably got a future carrying out fire risk assessments for a certain London Borough.

Rob-123

Lots of good points

I am unsure if it is a fire door, if I were to guess I would say yes because the door to the loft bedroom is on 3 hinges as opposed to all other doors which are on 2, this maybe is a heavier door?

I checked fire alarms last night, they are all wired into the mains through the ceiling, tick there! Also when we moved in there were door shutters on all doors, I didn’t know why these were there so I removed them all, now I know they were for fire safety, although the regs have changed and the aren’t required as far as I understand.

I have a little more info:

I’ve called the council to find out what is on file, a lady looked up my address and said that i would not have to pay for the final inspection, this is happening Tuesday. Apparently in 2005 the council/surveyor came out to the build 4 or 5 times, they have this on file! The previous owners applied for a final inspection (I assume they paid for this? I don’t know) and it has never been done.

So now it seems even more confusing how in 2016 no-one picked up that they were doing an elec rest on a loft that had been converted..?!

My solicitor however should have still informed me of no final certificate.