old debt haunting me

sourcrates

16 year old judgement is as much use as a chocolate fire guard in my opinion.

No court would grant them permission to enforce after all this time.

Call there bluff.

roisindubh

just a quickie, I'm going to send a letter tomorrow asking them to provide details of ccj, whilst investigating one of the other dca's involved in this chain 10 plus years ago (geoffrey parker bourne) I also found a very well written couple of templates that I'm also going to include. I've pasted the copy here and wondered if you nice people would just give it a once over to make sure it looks and reads acceptable

Thank you for your letter dated 16th December. In my previous correspondence I asked for my proof of liability regarding this debt as I do not acknowledge it. In your reply you have not sent any proof of liability merely quoted a judgement was placed on 3rd April 2001. Firstly I would like to see details of that judgement as I know nothing about it. Secondly after taking legal advise please comply with the following


ENTIRELY WITHOUT PREJUDICE: I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY, OR TO ANY OF YOUR ASSOCIATED COMPANIES, OR TO ANYONE ELSE ACTING UPON YOUR BEHALF, OR TO ANYONE YOU MAY HAVE BOUGHT THIS ALLEGED DEBT FROM. I REQUIRE YOU TO SEND ME THE DOCUMENTS DETAILED IN THIS LETTER BEFORE I WILL CORRESPOND WITH YOU ANY FURTHER IN THIS MATTER. PLEASE TAKE NOTE THAT AT THIS STAGE I AM DISPUTING THIS ALLEDGED DEBT, AND ANY COURT ACTION YOU MAY BE CONSIDERING WILL BE VIGOROUSLY CONTESTED


1. You must supply me with a true signed copy of the alleged Agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the Original Agreement under the legislation contained within Section.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a fully itemized Statement of Account.

2. You must supply me with a signed true copy of the Deed of Assignment of the above referenced Agreement that you allege exists.

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original Creditor or not under Section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant Statutory Authorities.

As you are aware, a 'Credit Agreement' that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the Consumer Credit Act and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

Please also supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to this alleged account from the date it was first opened to the date it was closed, or passed onto your Company. This includes the Account History prior to the sale of the debt to your Company. I also ask for a copy of any default notices you hold, interest I have paid, from when, and at what rate.

Additionally where there has been any event in my alleged account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or your Client's staff or by any other person acting on behalf of your Client, your Company or any of your associate Companies. I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with you.

If you are unable to supply data relating to manual intervention because there has been no such manual intervention then please be kind as to confirm this in your response to this request.

Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, added on any extra interest, or levied any other unfair, and illegal charges to my account then I shall be reclaiming them from you.

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested. You have 12 days from the date of this letter in which to supply me with the above documentation, after which failure to do so but to continue to take recovery action against me whilst I am disputing this alleged debt will be a very serious Criminal offence and I will NOT hesitate to report you to the relevant Statutory Authorities.

You will find enclosed a Cheque/(delete as appropriate) for £11,00. This being the statutory Fee for both sets of information. Please ensure you send a receipt for this amount by return of post, and please note, this amount is NOT a payment towards this alleged account, which I do not acknowledge.

Whilst this alleged account is IN DISPUTE, if I receive any more threatening letters from your Company, or anyone else acting upon your behalf, I will not hesitate to report your Company to:-

The Information Commissioner
Your Local Trading Standards Officer
The Consumer Credit Association
The Financial Conduct Authority

and any other relevant Statutory Authority.


Please be advised, I do NOT take your threats lightly, and I will NOT The Law is VERY clear on this matter. You are NOT permitted to take any further Recovery Action against all the time the alleged account remains IN DISPUTE.

Please be advised, I will ONLY correspond with you IN WRITING. Telephone Calls and Home Visits are NOT acceptable to me and will be treated as 'Harassment' and I shall not hesitate to commence LEGAL PROCEEDINGS against you if you ignore this request.


Yours Sincerely

sourcrates

Hi,

That letter is not really suitable.

They are under no obligation to do any of those things once judgement has been awarded against you.

Your argument is that more than 6 years has passed since the judgement was granted (that’s why it’s not on your credit file) if they wish to enforce the judgement now, they will have to go back to court in order to do so, to gain the courts permission (although CCJ’s don't becomes statute barred, 6 years is deemed long enough for enforcement purposes).

It’s extreamly likely the court will say enough time has passed to enforce this judgement and they haven’t done so, unless there’s an amazingly good reason why not, the court would refuse permission to enforce.

That’s your arguement.

roisindubh

oh, so i basically need to get them to let me know what is in the ccj and why they didn't enforce it. If it is the one that I think it is that changed hands several times before ending up with HL would their argument not be that I paid up to 2015 and then stopped ( simply because cheques went uncashed and no one communicated with me about what had happened or what the process was. I found out on line about hl going out of business.

Then after two years a letter turns up at my new address (which I supplied HL but they never used)

But again I disputed the amount several times without reply. I still believe most, if not all of this amount has been paid. If this letter is not suitable to ask them to prove my liability of £189 what should be (bearing in mind I never received a single statement from HL or Geoffrey Parker Bourne before them.) Surely if the ccj is valid (and I still don't know anything about it) I'm entitled to some statement of account from after the date of the ccj or they could just keep resetting the figure? Would they not have to provide a statement of account from April 2001 (date of supposed ccj) to 2015 showing what I had actually paid and what additional charges they had levied rather than just quote an arbitrary unproved figure?

Sorry if I'm harping on but i'm just pee'd off that this has started just before Christmas when I've got other stuff to sort out. I was just trying to come up with a prove it or sod off letter. I'm guessing it's all done in stages then, I now go back and ask them re alleged ccj, see what comes back and continue with the paper trail from there

sourcrates

In a nutshell, once judgement has been awarded against you, you cannot dispute anything, that right has now gone, so forget it.

All you need to do is remind them of the time scales for enforcing a judgement, as I have posted above.

Once they see you know your rights they should drop this like a hot stone.

That’s all you need to do, forget the rest.

Limitation

Enforcement action can be instructed for up to 6 years from the date a judgment became enforceable. You are able to continue trying to enforce for longer than the 6 years from date of judgment but you cannot start the first enforcement action past this date. Court permission is required to enforce a judgment debt that is more than 6 years old. Warrants of Control from the County Court and Writs of Control from the High Court must be renewed after 12 months if they have not been enforced.

roisindubh

just parted with £4 to trust online to search for any judgements under my name at my old address for peace of mind, the email back was

Please find below the results of your search of the Register(s) which should be read together with the explanatory
notes on the last page.
Registry Trust Limited (RTL) operates the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines for England and Wales under
contract to the Lord Chancellor, which is administered on his behalf by the Ministry of Justice. RTL also maintains
similar searchable registers of judgments for other jurisdictions in the British Isles and Republic of Ireland. Please see
our website for more details or contact us if you have any further questions.
Please note you will need to quote our reference number above if your questions relate to this search.
Customer Services Department
Registry Trust Limited
Detailed report for: MR my name and old address
153-157 Cleveland Street, London, W1T 6QW DX 134211 Tottenham Court Rd 2
Telephone 020 7380 0133
Date of search: 21 December 2017
Our ref : 2358487
Fee Paid (incl. VAT): £4.00
VAT Registration No: GB440 4009 96
Customer Ref : my email address
England and Wales Orders & Judgments
NOTHING REGISTERED

so I'm guessing they're chancing their luck and their is no ccj (which I didn't think there was) and the reference number they gave me at the time of the first letter which I tried to search for and couldn't is probably bogus too. Feel happier now, so I can go back to Capquest and ask them to provide details of what is on the ccj and theoretically they shouldn't be able to as theyre's nothing on the register correct ?

roisindubh

cheers Sourcrates, I think our posts crossed, i'll redo the letter simply asking for a copy of what's in the ccj of such and such a date, would you go as far as asking them why it wasn't enforced within six years or am i just pushing my luck on that score. Just leave it at the first bit and see what they come back with (if anything)

fatbelly

sourcrates wrote: »

Hi,

That letter is not really suitable.

They are under no obligation to do any of those things once judgement has been awarded against you.

Your argument is that more than 6 years has passed since the judgement was granted (that’s why it’s not on your credit file) if they wish to enforce the judgement now, they will have to go back to court in order to do so, to gain the courts permission (although CCJ’s don't becomes statute barred, 6 years is deemed long enough for enforcement purposes).

It’s extreamly likely the court will say enough time has passed to enforce this judgement and they haven’t done so, unless there’s an amazingly good reason why not, the court would refuse permission to enforce.

That’s your arguement.

I agree about that letter - if I started to criticise it I wouldn't know where to stop. Or start.

I would only add 'That’s your argument- if the ccj is genuine'

roisindubh wrote: »

just parted with £4 to trust online to search for any judgements under my name at my old address for peace of mind, the email back was

Please find below the results of your search of the Register(s) which should be read together with the explanatory
notes on the last page.
Registry Trust Limited (RTL) operates the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines for England and Wales under
contract to the Lord Chancellor, which is administered on his behalf by the Ministry of Justice. RTL also maintains
similar searchable registers of judgments for other jurisdictions in the British Isles and Republic of Ireland. Please see
our website for more details or contact us if you have any further questions.
Please note you will need to quote our reference number above if your questions relate to this search.
Customer Services Department
Registry Trust Limited
Detailed report for: MR my name and old address
153-157 Cleveland Street, London, W1T 6QW DX 134211 Tottenham Court Rd 2
Telephone 020 7380 0133
Date of search: 21 December 2017
Our ref : 2358487
Fee Paid (incl. VAT): £4.00
VAT Registration No: GB440 4009 96
Customer Ref : my email address
England and Wales Orders & Judgments
NOTHING REGISTERED

so I'm guessing they're chancing their luck and their is no ccj (which I didn't think there was) and the reference number they gave me at the time of the first letter which I tried to search for and couldn't is probably bogus too. Feel happier now, so I can go back to Capquest and ask them to provide details of what is on the ccj and theoretically they shouldn't be able to as theyre's nothing on the register correct ?

The register only goes back six years.

If you've got the court reference and the issuing court you could ask the court for a copy. There is no fee and I do this a lot for my clients by email.

Alternatively or in addition, ask the creditor to 'please send me a copy of the judgement allegedly obtained 03 April 2001' - there's still a good chance this is nothing to do with you.

roisindubh

thanks for the info above Sourcrates and Fatbelly, I've redone the letter re the enforcement if it is my ccj not starting within six years as per the advice,

is this looking better?

"21st December 2017

Reference 10774313

Thank you for your letter dated 16th December. In my previous correspondence I asked for my proof of liability regarding this debt as I do not acknowledge it. In your reply you have not sent any proof of liability merely quoted a judgement was placed on 3rd April 2001.

Firstly I would like to see details of that judgement as I know nothing about it. I’ve checked my credit file and nothing appears there, however as it is over six years old and therefore outside the enforcement period of six years it would have dropped off in 2007.

I believe that if the county court judgement does in fact relate to me (which I still don’t acknowledge) the initial enforcement should have begun before April 2007. You are now raising this judgement over ten years after the deadline for starting enforcement proceedings and I still have not been made aware of any details of said judgement

Yours sincerely"


I just want the letter to cover the bases and look as knowledgable as possible to maybe make them back off a little

roisindubh

HI it's me again, received the latest capquest instalment today in the post, it says

"Please contact the courts in order to obtain a copy of the judgement providing you with further details"
(they've never supplied in any of the letters to me a judgement number or a court, just a date)

"We refer to your recent request for documentation. We can confirm that we are unable to provide this."
(so all they have is a judgement date, an unsubstantiated amount and an account number I cant verify)

"However it is our position that having written to you and obtained judgement, your opportunity to dispute this matter has now passed. This also includes any request for supporting paperwork"
(they wrote to me for the first time 2 months ago, 10 years after the enforcement expiry date of alleged judgement. They didn't obtain judgement, if one was obtained it is at least 3 or 4 debt collection agencies ago going by the time frame, The supporting paperwork I wanted related to how much I have paid off since the date of the judgement as I have never received a statement, which I thought became law several years ago, and in 14 years before capquest became involved received the sum total of about 4 letters)

"please be advised that we will not currently be enforcing the judgement. Your account has been placed on hold until 02 February 2018. Please contact us blah blah blah"

It looks to me (hopefully) that they're running out of steam. Is it time to call their bluff as they seem to base their whole demand for money I don't owe on an unknown judgement that they can't give any details on, didn't obtain and that expired a decade ago.

Any suggestions on how to word a call their bluff letter, I wan't them off my back without being unncessarily insulting or confrontational. The steady drip drip drip of letters is getting wearing, I want to draw a line under it as i've moved on with my life, got a new family and am almost debt free (from the debts I know about from that period in my life)