old debt haunting me

roisindubh

Just after some advice please. 18 years ago my first wife ran up lots of debts in my name on credit cards and catalogues.

In 2000 with the help of citizens advice i came to informal agreements with all the creditors to pay them back on a monthly basis. Everything went hunky dory and most of the debts have been paid. However one particular one has raised its ugly head again. I owed one particular catalogue several hundred pounds, I have been paying it off in monthly instalments from 2000 till the end of 2015 when the collections agency at the time (which I beliewve was the 3rd or 4th one to service the debt) stopped cashing the cheques. When I checked online they appear to have gone out of business. Previously (2011) I had moved house and made everyone aware of my new address. All the agencies bar this one started posting to my new address. I was also in dispute with them at the time as the debt appeared to have increased by sixty pounds (standing at 189 instead of the 127 i had it listed as, i know it only seems a piddling amount in the scheme of things.) I carried on paying them on a monthly basis whilst asking for an explanation for the disparity. None was forthcoming and then they went belly up.

To the present day. This morning I received a letter from a new agency called capquest claiming they'd purchased a debt i owed to arrow global for 189.00 I'd never heard of this Arrow Global but through a process of elimination it seemed to come down to the same debt (alhough they couldn't recognise or confirm half of the previous agencies the original catalogue company tied up so I figured it was that one)

I acknowledged that I did still owe them some money but not the figure they were claiming. I asked them several questions re the original amount (they didn't know) The payments I'd made in the past (they didn't know) How they came to the figure they claimed I owed( we got it from the other company) Can you get some figures to see where the disparity is (no, as i't so old we don't have any paperwork)

At this point I said to them that you've sent me a letter claiming I owe you 189 for a debt you've purchased from an agency I've never heard of who apparently bought this debt from someone else several years ago but you have no documentation to prove I actually owe you 189 quid.

The response was can you prove you don't owe us 189 quid. They then mentioned there was a ccj against me for it in 2001 which may have put the cost up. I said I've never had a ccj ref any of the debts as I have been paying them off on a monthly basis since 2000 so why would they apply for a ccj when I'd already been paying a different agency monthly for over a year previously. They couldn't answer and had no details of what was on the ccj. I then stated I had the figure from the second agency 3 years after the alleged ccj which should theoretically include any costs incurred from said ccj to which they agreed. Based on the 2004 figure the money outstanding was still lower than what they claimed. This second agency had also included 50 quid late payment charges for a cheque they'd already cashed which when I disputed they wouldn't refund. The response from the latest agency was we've got an exisiting ccj against you (from 16 years ago) you need to take legal advice and pay up.

Anyway, what I'm wanting to know is where do I stand. I'm not aware of a ccj. Ive dilligently paid all these agencies, the final one I knew of went out of business. My debt has been transferred again. Do I have to pay the full amount they're asking even though they have no paper trail or evidence to back up the amount. Can they take further action against me?

I'm just wanting a fair crack of the whip. with the charges added on by several agencies the figure I actually owe is well under 100 quid but this new agency is demanding nearly 200 with no evidence other than (it's the figure we've been given) I've asked them to go and get some paperwork, which, supposedly they're going to do from arrow (which coincidentally after doing some digging is part of the same group of companies anyway) but the girl on the phone was "but it's so old they probably won't have any either " A this point I was getting somewhat peeved although I kept a lid on it and responded with "You've sent me a letter asking me for money, you've no history of who i've been paying, how much i've been paying or what was in dispute and I'm just meant to take it in good faith that you're correct or prove otherwhise"

Like I said, not a massive amount but it's more a point of principle. How can someone cone chasing an arbitrary amount and not have to back it up with any paperwork at all

fatbelly

Everything in writing.

Two letters should sort this:

1. A prove-it

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2607247

2. If this looks like your old debt but they have not sent a copy of the agreement, then a cca request (s77-79 consumer credit act)

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/factsheets/Pages/getting-information/credit-agreement-advice.aspx

Max_and_sasha

Hi there

Send them a prove it letter, you will find the template on this site, the company ( capquest) need to prove to YOU that you are due them the money, but as they have said to you there is no paperwork......
They have probably bought this debt for pennies, if they do somehow prove you owe this debt offer them a low full and final settlement.


Max

sourcrates

Do as Fatbelly suggests above.

You need to take back a little control here, as your letting the DCA’s call the shots, instead of you.

They MUST provide evidence of liability when asked, you have no obligation to prove anything.

CCJ’s only stay on your file 6 years, then vanish, also any creditor wanting to enforce a CCJ over 6 years old, must go back to court and obtain permission to do so, after 16 years it’s highly unlikely the court would agree to this.

roisindubh

so just to clarify, send them a prove it letter a a cca letter at the same time?

My main concern is covered by the cca letter as they seem very vague on details and don't seem to have any paperwork. My wife said there should be a paper trail from the original purchase through the several dva's showing what I owed and how much I paid to date but they seem to struggle with even the basic details. I'm guessing if it's all legit they should be able to comply with the request. Do I send them both at the same time or separate envelopes or doesn't it matter

thanks for the advice guys it's putting my mind at ease slowly

fatbelly

Just send a prove-it and see what comes back.

They should be able to send a copy of the agreement, statements to prove the balance and a copy of the notification when they bought it.

It's unlikely they'll be able to provide much of this, so they can't really prove it's your debt..

If they do prove it (quoting the original reference would be a start) you then do a s77-79 request, and the account is unenforceable until they rather find or reconstruct the original agreement.

Why I wouldn't go straight to the s77-79 request is that it assumes it's your debt and I'm not clear from your post that that is true.

None of your phone calls count as acknowledgement btw.

I'm assuming that the ccj bit is completely made up. If they have one they will quote the claim reference and the issuing court.

roisindubh

thanks, i'll send them a prove it letter and see what happens. They did quote a ccj reference but this was a year after I'd already started paying them and it was the first I'd heard of it, plus why would the dca at the time (intrim Justicia) apply for a ccj if I was paying as per agreement

Shashy

You still sound a little stressed at this and I don't think you need to be. Just so there's no ambiguity here and you fully understand what people are saying; if they don't have the proof that you owe them money, then the debt is completely unenforceable, and owe them nothing. The burden of proof lies 100% with them.

roisindubh

Thanks everyone, yes shashy I am a little bit stressed, I tried explaining to the woman at capquest that as far as I was concerned the original debt they think it links to was paid in the main with possibly less than 100 left if at all. I asked them for proof I owed them the amount they quoted, their reply was it's the total in the letter from arrow, can you prove you don't owe. My reply was surely that's not my job. Can't you fish out the payments I've made down the years. This is when they started sayinb that they didn't have any docs as it was too old. They couldn't even tell me who the previous dca's were, so I guess they're going to struggle for most paperwork. Yes they quoted a ccj reference but i've never even been aware one was applied for.

I'm much calmer now, I'm printing the prove it letter tonight. I will keep you all appraised and come back for more advice as the situation dictates

poppasmurf_bewdley

roisindubh wrote: »

so just to clarify, send them a prove it letter a a cca letter at the same time?

My main concern is covered by the cca letter as they seem very vague on details and don't seem to have any paperwork. My wife said there should be a paper trail from the original purchase through the several dva's showing what I owed and how much I paid to date but they seem to struggle with even the basic details. I'm guessing if it's all legit they should be able to comply with the request. Do I send them both at the same time or separate envelopes or doesn't it matter

thanks for the advice guys it's putting my mind at ease slowly

That is the whole point of the CCA request. If the DCA cannot provide the details required for the CCA request, then the whole thing is dead in the water as far as they are concerned and they will be unable to pursue the debt.

sourcrates

roisindubh wrote: »

Thanks everyone, yes shashy I am a little bit stressed, I tried explaining to the woman at capquest that as far as I was concerned the original debt they think it links to was paid in the main with possibly less than 100 left if at all. I asked them for proof I owed them the amount they quoted, their reply was it's the total in the letter from arrow, can you prove you don't owe. My reply was surely that's not my job. Can't you fish out the payments I've made down the years. This is when they started sayinb that they didn't have any docs as it was too old. They couldn't even tell me who the previous dca's were, so I guess they're going to struggle for most paperwork. Yes they quoted a ccj reference but i've never even been aware one was applied for.

I'm much calmer now, I'm printing the prove it letter tonight. I will keep you all appraised and come back for more advice as the situation dictates

This is the reason why you should only deal with debt collectors in writing, it’s a lot less stressful.