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planning / 'change of use of land' help please...
**G*O*S*H**
Posts: 19 Forumite
Good Morning
I am hoping I can ask a question on here about planning regs / permission.
I didn't see an exact category so I chose this one.
I am asking on behalf of my father really and I hope someone may be able to offer advice
His parents owned a second home since the early 70's.
Two years ago his mum died, his dad passed away 2005.
The property was sold to cover I.Tax bills BUT the additional land my grandfather purchased separate to the house some time late 70's was not included in the sale.
This was retained.
The land was directly behind the house, the back garden backed onto the land and you could access through a gate in the back garden.
This land also had it's own driveway / vehicle access and when purchased had a hard standing with two large boat sheds, timber construction on it, which I remembering blowing down in the 1987 storm.
These were then replaced with 2 'marley garages' and has been like it ever since.
Garages had power and water tapped off the main house.
Now, when the house was sold, the gate was bricked up and the land retained.
My father who wants to keep the land purely because us kids grew up using the property as a holiday home and so have my children wanted to keep 'something' - it is in a pretty area, right by the sea and holds a lot of memories.
He owns an expensive 6 berth caravan, which currently is in paid storage.
He had planned to keep the van down there and not have to pay out for storing it any longer (his driveway is too small and off road parking is scarce as it is at home)
If any of us wanted to go and use the beach at the weekend in the summer we could and we could then use the van for a spot of lunch / the loo / get away from the sun etc whilst having somewhere to park the car safely.
The couple who bought the house were concerned he would sell to developer - mass developer over the road who got away with houses on flood plain.
Dad said it could never happen as the land is not allowed to be built on in his lifetime and probably even ours.
He said he wanted to maintain the land - as he does, and keep his caravan down there, which the new buyer was relieved about
However.
Dad had the driveway re-surfaced because it was old and crumbling and because the land is heavy clay had a hard stand put down for the van, rather than the grass which gets very waterlogged - just an extension of the drive, a turning circle if you like.
It seems SOME disgruntled neighbour isn't happy and dad arrived one day to find someone from the council snooping about taking photos having accessed the land through a neighbours garden WITHOUT permission from Dad or the neighbour or prior notification in writing (this is another issue, surely that is wrong?)
Turns out even dad 'STORING' his caravan down there is 'change of use'
They have sent him a letter that he has 28 days to return the land how it was (ie, break up the new driveway and the 'hard stand') and NOT move the van down there.
This is in no way the first steps of gaining planning - he is retired, no interest at all, has a big house they will no doubt be downsizing from 35 miles away and just wants to hold on to a family memory and someone to keep his 6 berth safe and secure without paying someone else to do it.
Any advice on how to handle this please?
It seems so incredibly picky, nobody will see it, in fact the garages are the eyesore and someone is concerned about his expensive caravan... we know who the neighbour is anyway that complained and they are a well known and disliked resident of the road...
Thank you for reading this
I am hoping I can ask a question on here about planning regs / permission.
I didn't see an exact category so I chose this one.
I am asking on behalf of my father really and I hope someone may be able to offer advice
His parents owned a second home since the early 70's.
Two years ago his mum died, his dad passed away 2005.
The property was sold to cover I.Tax bills BUT the additional land my grandfather purchased separate to the house some time late 70's was not included in the sale.
This was retained.
The land was directly behind the house, the back garden backed onto the land and you could access through a gate in the back garden.
This land also had it's own driveway / vehicle access and when purchased had a hard standing with two large boat sheds, timber construction on it, which I remembering blowing down in the 1987 storm.
These were then replaced with 2 'marley garages' and has been like it ever since.
Garages had power and water tapped off the main house.
Now, when the house was sold, the gate was bricked up and the land retained.
My father who wants to keep the land purely because us kids grew up using the property as a holiday home and so have my children wanted to keep 'something' - it is in a pretty area, right by the sea and holds a lot of memories.
He owns an expensive 6 berth caravan, which currently is in paid storage.
He had planned to keep the van down there and not have to pay out for storing it any longer (his driveway is too small and off road parking is scarce as it is at home)
If any of us wanted to go and use the beach at the weekend in the summer we could and we could then use the van for a spot of lunch / the loo / get away from the sun etc whilst having somewhere to park the car safely.
The couple who bought the house were concerned he would sell to developer - mass developer over the road who got away with houses on flood plain.
Dad said it could never happen as the land is not allowed to be built on in his lifetime and probably even ours.
He said he wanted to maintain the land - as he does, and keep his caravan down there, which the new buyer was relieved about
However.
Dad had the driveway re-surfaced because it was old and crumbling and because the land is heavy clay had a hard stand put down for the van, rather than the grass which gets very waterlogged - just an extension of the drive, a turning circle if you like.
It seems SOME disgruntled neighbour isn't happy and dad arrived one day to find someone from the council snooping about taking photos having accessed the land through a neighbours garden WITHOUT permission from Dad or the neighbour or prior notification in writing (this is another issue, surely that is wrong?)
Turns out even dad 'STORING' his caravan down there is 'change of use'
They have sent him a letter that he has 28 days to return the land how it was (ie, break up the new driveway and the 'hard stand') and NOT move the van down there.
This is in no way the first steps of gaining planning - he is retired, no interest at all, has a big house they will no doubt be downsizing from 35 miles away and just wants to hold on to a family memory and someone to keep his 6 berth safe and secure without paying someone else to do it.
Any advice on how to handle this please?
It seems so incredibly picky, nobody will see it, in fact the garages are the eyesore and someone is concerned about his expensive caravan... we know who the neighbour is anyway that complained and they are a well known and disliked resident of the road...
Thank you for reading this
0
Comments
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If the land has been in continuous use for caravan storage for 10 years or more, the council cannot take enforcement action - and you can apply for a Lawful Development Certificate.
Historic Google Earth images, historic Google Streetview images, old family photos, sworn statements from neighbours etc would be useful in proving 10 years' usage.
Similarly, if the drive has been there for 10+years, there should be no problem with re-surfacing it.
I'm less sure about the situation with the new hard standing.0 -
If the land has been in continuous use for caravan storage for 10 years or more, the council cannot take enforcement action - and you can apply for a Lawful Development Certificate.
OP says the caravan is currently in paid storage - so presumably not currently on the land in question, and so this wouldn't apply.**G*O*S*H** wrote: »Garages had power and water tapped off the main house.
Presumably this was disconnected when the main house was sold ? I can't imagine that the new owners of the house would feel thrilled at the idea of paying for someone elses power and water ?**G*O*S*H** wrote: »The property was sold to cover I.Tax bills BUT the additional land my grandfather purchased separate to the house some time late 70's was not included in the sale.
This was retained.
The land was directly behind the house, the back garden backed onto the land and you could access through a gate in the back garden.
We have a similar arrangement with our home on the coast - the previous owners bought some additional land to entend the back garden after their original purchase, and this was sold to us along with the house and original garden. The new garden came with a covenant that said (broadly speaking) that the land could not be built on or used for occupation but just as garden. It might be worth checking if any similar such covenant was in place when your grandparents originally purchased the land.0 -
Thank you for both replies.
Actually, the land did have a caravan on it for many years, it belonged to my grandfathers brother and his wife who took holidays there rather than stayed in the house!
However, he passed away probably mid 1990's
But yes, my dad's van is in storage elsewhere at cost.
The power and water have of course been disconnected as they were fed off the house.
The land 100% cannot be built on, my grandfather approached the idea after the 1987 storm because the boat shed blew down and it was a flat no and also after he died the idea was put to the council because my grandmother was unable to drive anyway so as to reduce the land, again - it isn't an option.0 -
**G*O*S*H** wrote: »The land 100% cannot be built on, my grandfather approached the idea after the 1987 storm because the boat shed blew down and it was a flat no and also after he died the idea was put to the council because my grandmother was unable to drive anyway so as to reduce the land, again - it isn't an option.**G*O*S*H** wrote: »It seems SOME disgruntled neighbour isn't happy and dad arrived one day to find someone from the council snooping about taking photos
The council are probably clamping down on the caravan because they have already had two applications to build on the site and think someone might start using the caravan as a permanent home.
It's easier to ban the caravan than have a court battle to get residents off the site.
As there are no services to the land, how would you manage on holiday without electricity, running water and means of disposing of sewage?
BYW, a council official checking up on a report isn't 'snooping' - he/she is doing their job!0 -
The problem is that although that might not be the intention, this is exactly what is going on. Any experienced planning officer will know the technique.... start with one thing, turn it into another, then do it for a while and hey-presto! a change of use has occurred.**G*O*S*H** wrote: »This is in no way the first steps of gaining planning...
Unfortunately people doing a "what can we get away with" kind of thing then makes it harder for people like your dad to do something quite reasonable with a piece of land they own.
I'm not criticising you or your dad - just pointing out how the planners will see things.
Fair enough, but why does he want to start doing that now? If I had a spare bit of land I'd have stored my caravan there from the start, not paying for storage elsewhere. There may be a very good reason like security, but the planner will ask questions like that.**G*O*S*H** wrote: »He had planned to keep the van down there and not have to pay out for storing it any longer (his driveway is too small and off road parking is scarce as it is at home)
Potentially yes, but if I read that as a planner I'd ask myself why the emphasis on 'STORING' is so strong....**G*O*S*H** wrote: »Turns out even dad 'STORING' his caravan down there is 'change of use'
....because technically that isn't 'storing' but could be interpreted as 'siting'.**G*O*S*H** wrote: »If any of us wanted to go and use the beach at the weekend in the summer we could and we could then use the van for a spot of lunch / the loo / get away from the sun etc whilst having somewhere to park the car safely.
Then it is only a small step to people sleeping in it overnight, then for a week at a time, then full-time.
Unless the council take action at some point, a 'stored' caravan might become a dwelling with established residential use. And then it becomes much easier to convert the 'caravan' into a nice brick-built house.
If the intention is to genuinely use the land for storing the caravan (which I am assuming) then the best thing to do, rather than fighting with the council (to see what can be got away with), is to ask them about applying for consent to use the land for storage.
If a consent is given for storage it will normally come with conditions preventing it being used for occupation, thereby protecting the council against dealing with future claims of residential use.
It is a pain when we have to do things like that to be able to use our land for what we quite reasonably want, but that is a result of people pushing the boundaries and trying to get away with stuff that they shouldn't.
"In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"0 -
There has never been a planning application in place - never even got that far. It wasn't even a discussion, that land cannot be built on.
It is also next to a farmers field (crops) and there is something about 'nothing' being allowed within a certain proximity of that anyway - IF a house were allowed.
Nobody wants to live down there - our lives are all elsewhere and it is your typical seaside place, packed in the summer and miserable in the winter, they struggle to sell what is already on the market down there as it is.
The land would be just used for 'siting/storing' the van, it cannot go on my parents driveway and the storage costs are mounting, he has had it about 8 months and there is a possibility that the storage facility may be subject to it's own planning process for a small industrial unit and close anyway.
It wouldn't be for a holiday site - as you say, no facilities.
A cup of tea would mean bottled water and the jetboil, washing your paws - baby wipes, toilet - use the public ones at the beach 5 min walk up the road (although it does have a chem loo but never used).
They were snooping, you would expect a letter to be produced first with a period of response, after all they know who owns the land and WHERE to contact them. Then if that time-scale lapses, fair enough - snoop. But they never did that, they went through a neighbours garden without their permission, jumped the back wall and onto the land.
Now, if anything had happened to her, fallen off the wall, broke her ankle... just saying, it isn't right at all.0 -
No, it is right. The planning officer was doing his job, not snooping. You may not see it as a change of use, others may view it differently. Each penny has it right; where do you draw a line? Just washing hands, and boiling a kettle, having an afternoon kip out of the sun, or using it overnight.... It many not be your intention, but it may seem to others to be that.
As to sending a letter beforehand, that would give those bending the rules ample time to remove the power supply and water, pack the beds and barbeque away, pack granny and the kids elsewhere, and make their caravan home look "stored".
If you wish to store a caravan there, apply for change of use, and meet any conditions applied.
It does appear, from what you have written, that the caravan is to be used there, not merely stored. Now, if you let me park my caravan there, charge me per week, and insist it be locked from arrival to departure, with neither you or I entering, that might be storage alone..... which would still require a change of use.0 -
**G*O*S*H** wrote: »There has never been a planning application in place - never even got that far. It wasn't even a discussion, that land cannot be built on.
It is also next to a farmers field (crops) and there is something about 'nothing' being allowed within a certain proximity of that anyway - IF a house were allowed.
Nobody wants to live down there - our lives are all elsewhere and it is your typical seaside place, packed in the summer and miserable in the winter, they struggle to sell what is already on the market down there as it is.
The land would be just used for 'siting/storing' the van, it cannot go on my parents driveway and the storage costs are mounting, he has had it about 8 months and there is a possibility that the storage facility may be subject to it's own planning process for a small industrial unit and close anyway.
It wouldn't be for a holiday site - as you say, no facilities.
A cup of tea would mean bottled water and the jetboil, washing your paws - baby wipes, toilet - use the public ones at the beach 5 min walk up the road (although it does have a chem loo but never used).
They were snooping, you would expect a letter to be produced first with a period of response, after all they know who owns the land and WHERE to contact them. Then if that time-scale lapses, fair enough - snoop. But they never did that, they went through a neighbours garden without their permission, jumped the back wall and onto the land.
Now, if anything had happened to her, fallen off the wall, broke her ankle... just saying, it isn't right at all.
So your dad not only resurfaced the land, he had an additional hard standing for a caravan added. I.e an additional development on a land where additional development was not allowed. Didn’t bother contact the council planners before getting this work done and now thinks the council coming to the site to inspect the work to ensure it doesn’t contravene planning rules is snooping. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:Spelling courtesy of the whims of auto correct...
Pet Peeves.... queues, vain people and hypocrites ..not necessarily in that order.0 -
He didn't re-surface the land, the driveway was already tarmac covered and has been all my life and I am 35. It was just crumbling and in a bad state of repair allowing weeds to grow through it
It had a huge turning circle (again tarmac) before the garage entrance which has been re-done as well but made rectangular rather than the odd shape kidney thing that was there before (he could actually had he wanted put the van on the existing handstand behind the garage - by extending the drive slightly but that edge is quite exposed to cross winds from the open fields so didn't bother)
He hasn't built anything other than resurfaced his driveway so far, which needed doing regardless of what he wanted to do with the place.
He also didn't need to pack anything away because there is nothing there to pack away, the caravan is still in storage. Someone obviously got the grump because he was having the drive redone and wondered why.
Not being funny but UNLESS you are en expert in the world of planning - which he is not, never extended anything in his life and neither have we then why would you THINK any different?
The land belongs to him, the two huge double garages belong to him.He has to maintain the land - ie, prune hedges / cut the grass etc so why should he not be able to leave his caravan down there? For free. On his land.
Does that mean that him storing the ride on tractor mowers required to maintain the land down there is also forbidden?
Where do you draw the line?0 -
I think the difference is that one cannot live in a ride-on mower.**G*O*S*H** wrote: »Does that mean that him storing the ride on tractor mowers required to maintain the land down there is also forbidden?
Where do you draw the line?
However, if the land and entrance has been tarmacked, it's not right for the council to demand breaking the surface up, so I'd appeal on that basis. It's maintenance. The age of the garages proves it.
Also, as the land is owned, one can park a touring caravan on it or camp there28 days a year.
http://www.permitteddevelopment.org/The-28-day-rule-for-planning-permitted-development.php0
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