Ugh. What are my rights here? (Quite urgent)

Isolt

AdrianC wrote: »

If t'were me, I'd already be in there in person, with my bank on speakerphone, confirming out loud to the agent that the payment definitely left, definitely went to GoCardless, and definitely has not been returned.

You might prefer your bank to do that in writing, however...

Sure, I can put the bank on speakerphone or presumably even record my conversation with the bank and send the audio file to the rental company. I just think they need to take a little more responsibility here though. The reason I repeatedly mentioned that I've always been a reliable tenant who's never missed a payment was to give some context. If I was a flaky tenant their stance would be a lot more understandable.

When this payment was supposedly 'lost', I got an email from Go Cardless claiming the payment had failed. I immediately forwarded the email to the rental company and explained to them that actually the payment had left my current account just fine, as it always does. I attached a screenshot of my statement showing the payment leaving my account. I then heard absolutely nothing back from the rental company for 23 days. At this point they suddenly contacted me to say that they'd forgotten about my email but that now according to Go Cardless the payment had failed.

Since then I've provided document after document as well as a unique reference number the bank gave me that apparently identifies that particular payment.

It's not at all clear who's liable for this missing payment. The rental company are now accusing me of being "one month in arrears."

AdrianC

Isolt wrote: »

I just think they need to take a little more responsibility here though. The reason I repeatedly mentioned that I've always been a reliable tenant who's never missed a payment was to give some context. If I was a flaky tenant their stance would be a lot more understandable.

Hold on a moment, and look at it from their point of view. You are a tenant who HAS missed a payment, and is waving a seemingly suspiciously flimsy excuse around.

It's not at all clear who's liable for this missing payment.

To them - no, it isn't at all clear. But one thing's for sure - they have a lot more instances of tenants waving flimsy excuses around than they have of their payment processing company genuinely losing payments.

The rental company are now accusing me of being "one month in arrears."

That's because you currently are. You say it's not your fault, and you can demonstrate that it left you to the payment processor - but that doesn't change the fact that they have not received your rent for that month.

What you need to be doing is convincing the agent that you are being straight with them, and that the processor is the problem. Remember, you have no contract with the processor, so they won't speak to you - only to their customer.

Isolt

AdrianC wrote: »

Hold on a moment, and look at it from their point of view. You are a tenant who HAS missed a payment, and is waving a seemingly suspiciously flimsy excuse around.

To them - no, it isn't at all clear. But one thing's for sure - they have a lot more instances of tenants waving flimsy excuses around than they have of their payment processing company genuinely losing payments.

That's because you currently are. You say it's not your fault, and you can demonstrate that it left you to the payment processor - but that doesn't change the fact that they have not received your rent for that month.

What you need to be doing is convincing the agent that you are being straight with them, and that the processor is the problem. Remember, you have no contract with the processor, so they won't speak to you - only to their customer.

This seems overly harsh. We are given no option but to pay by Direct Debit directly to this Go Cardless company. I have done everything I was required to do: submitted valid bank details and made sure sufficient funds are in the account to meet the Direct Debit each month. It's unclear what more I could do. I'd have been more than happy to simply pop through a bank transfer each month instead, or pay by Standing Order. But I was instructed to pay by Direct Debit, and that's precisely what I did. I really do not see how I am fault here.

I pay my council tax, phone bill and other utility bills by Direct Debit and have never, ever had a company come back to me claiming the Direct Debit funds didn't reach them.

AdrianC

Isolt wrote: »

This seems overly harsh.

Sorry, you misunderstand me. I'm asking you to see it from their point of view, rather than your own. Of course you are adamant that your version of events is the accurate one.

We are given no option but to pay by Direct Debit directly to this Go Cardless company. I have done everything I was required to do: submitted valid bank details and made sure sufficient funds are in the account to meet the Direct Debit each month. It's unclear what more I could do. I'd have been more than happy to simply pop through a bank transfer each month instead, or pay by Standing Order. But I was instructed to pay by Direct Debit, and that's precisely what I did. I really do not see how I am fault here.

I'm sure. But, for all the agent knows, you might just be coming up with this claim as an excuse to mask the fact you didn't actually pay. Remember, they have no access to your account or to any of the payment records between you and the processor - all they can confirm is what the processor have paid to them.

I pay my council tax, phone bill and other utility bills by Direct Debit and have never, ever had a company come back to me claiming the Direct Debit funds didn't reach them.

Don't forget that there's an extra set of hands in the middle of this.

Normally it's
you -> DD -> recipient.

Here, it's
you -> DD -> payment processor -> (whatever method) -> recipient

They are being told by you that you paid and by the processor that you did not. Who do they believe? The processor have a track record of reliability and professional competence.
Tenants (as a generic group) lie about paying regularly.

This is why the onus is on you to prove - to the utmost of your ability - that you DID pay, and that the processor are the ones in error.

00ec25

Isolt wrote: »

But I was instructed to pay by Direct Debit, and that's precisely what I did. I really do not see how I am fault here.

on the face of it you are not at fault, but neither is the rental company. You are in arrears for your rent, but the money has left your account. It is stuck in the middle with the payment processor.

in the several 100 payments that we have received via GC I have had a few notified as failed DD, and when I have contacted the customer they have always confirmed the payment did in fact fail at their end, not after GC had it.

your situation is unusual, but hardly unforseeable given the transaction volumes processed each day by GC. It is inevitable that some transactions will fall into cracks, hence your issue lies with GC as they have the money but cannot tie it up with who sent it or where it should go, hence I think you should use GC 's "complaints" system

Out,_Vile_Jelly

I have had a similar dispute in a work context, with a supplier insisting they hadn't received payment, and my institution's finance dept insisting it had been made on x date. It was eventually resolved when they acknowledged receipt of payment, although they claimed it came through much later. As the person in the middle I felt quite helpless as I didn't have direct access to either banking system to see for myself what was what.

The easiest way of sorting it would be to get a competent person on both sides to make contact and review the transaction and find out how this sum has "disappeared". The easiest resolution from their point of view is to harrass you until you pay again, rather than investigating more thoroughly.

It might be worth contacting the consumer affairs correspondent on one of the papers (ie the Guardian) as they often resolve billing disputes with their intervention.

Isolt

AdrianC wrote: »

Sorry, you misunderstand me. I'm asking you to see it from their point of view, rather than your own. Of course you are adamant that your version of events is the accurate one.



I'm sure. But, for all the agent knows, you might just be coming up with this claim as an excuse to mask the fact you didn't actually pay. Remember, they have no access to your account or to any of the payment records between you and the processor - all they can confirm is what the processor have paid to them.




Don't forget that there's an extra set of hands in the middle of this.

Normally it's
you -> DD -> recipient.

Here, it's
you -> DD -> payment processor -> (whatever method) -> recipient

They are being told by you that you paid and by the processor that you did not. Who do they believe? The processor have a track record of reliability and professional competence.
Tenants (as a generic group) lie about paying regularly.

This is why the onus is on you to prove - to the utmost of your ability - that you DID pay, and that the processor are the ones in error.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.

I've done pretty much everything in my ability to prove the cash left my account. I've provided them with bank statements showing not only the payment leaving but also the next couple of weeks, showing that the payment did not bounce back into my account or anything.

If I were in the rental company's position I think I'd ask Go Cardless for some proof (sight of their bank statements for that period perhaps) that the payment is not simply there but not yet assigned. I'd also comb carefully through the tenant's payment history to see whether there were any causes for concern, whether they had a reputation for paying late or being flaky. I'd also consider my general dealings with the tenant in question -- have they tended to seem organised, responsible and mature? Do they look after the flat well? etc etc

Isolt

Out,_Vile_Jelly wrote: »

I have had a similar dispute in a work context, with a supplier insisting they hadn't received payment, and my institution's finance dept insisting it had been made on x date. It was eventually resolved when they acknowledged receipt of payment, although they claimed it came through much later. As the person in the middle I felt quite helpless as I didn't have direct access to either banking system to see for myself what was what.

The easiest way of sorting it would be to get a competent person on both sides to make contact and review the transaction and find out how this sum has "disappeared". The easiest resolution from their point of view is to harrass you until you pay again, rather than investigating more thoroughly.

It might be worth contacting the consumer affairs correspondent on one of the papers (ie the Guardian) as they often resolve billing disputes with their intervention.

Yes I agree with you. The rental company claim they don't expect me to have to pay this sum again. But then what precisely do they want? They've said that if the funds simply can't be located "we'll work something out." It's not even clear what that's supposed to mean.

Ever since this payment went astray I've been paying my rent by good old fashioned Standing Order. No issues at all there. The money arrives same day it's debited and better still it arrives directly into the rental company's account and not into Go Cardless's. Naturally I don't want to get burned twice with a missing direct debit. However, they've now insisted I go back to paying by Direct Debit. God knows what I'll do if Go Cardless "lose" another payment.

saajan_12

00ec25 wrote: »

on the face of it you are not at fault, but neither is the rental company. You are in arrears for your rent, but the money has left your account. It is stuck in the middle with the payment processor.

No, the LL instructed the tenant to pay GC. The tenant is responsible for ensuring the money reaches GC, but once it has that's the LL's issue with their agent.

Similarly if the LL told the tenant to pay a lettings agent, the tenant has to ensure it reaches the agent, after that its not the tenant's problem. If the tenant took it on themself however, to pay the LL's neighbour, then it is still the tenant's problem until it reaches the account the LL instructed them to pay to.

FBaby

I've provided them with bank statements showing not only the payment leaving but also the next couple of weeks, showing that the payment did not bounce back into my account or anything.

As you seem to be aware, it is possible to reclaim a sum paid and when doing so, it can take longer than 2 weeks to be credited back, so maybe two weeks was not enough.

As already suggested, the only way to prove your honesty is to get your bank involved directly.