desperate help in preparing defence vs UK CPM LTD

logician

lee_ca wrote: »

I am trying to prepare a defence for a family member who is being taken to County Court by UK Car Park Management Ltd via Gladstone Solicitors. I have 2 weeks to submit the defence which would be until 5th November 2017.
UKCPM have submitted their defence papers which I can PM if required.

Lee

It would appear you are at the witness statement stage

What was the defence submitted?

[Deleted User]

The evidence pack is pants. That much is true. It's a collection of papers and certainly not a complete contract. Some thoughts...

1. The contract is with a managing agent, not with the landlord. Is that the correct managing agent?
2. The contract was said to be signed on 24/1/13 and signs installed, but it was clearly varied. The site plan gives a start date of November 2012 (so which is it?) And that same document then says that commercial vehicles were permitted after 7pm until rules changed in June 2016.
3. Were you notified of each and every rule change?
4. Nothing in that contract gives UKCPM the authority to issue court proceedings on behalf of the landowner, unless of course it's incomplete. The process of issuing proceedings being distinct from authority to issue tickets
5. Finally, it's a good old forbidding sign. If you were never permitted to park there you were never able to agree to the terms of a parking contract so, at least in principle, cannot have agreed to pay £100 for breaching any of the conditions.

lee_ca

many thanks @logician and @safarmuk for your responses.
I must admit I am struggling to write up a defence with specific relation to a breach in contract re: commercial vehicles.

It would appear you are at the witness statement stage
What was the defence submitted?

Still trying to do this at the moment

Your tenancy agreement makes no reference to an allocated space, in fact clause 2 which has the "commercial vehicle" clause just refers to "garden, driveway, paved or grassed areas around your home" .,,

I asked about this and am told that the housing associated provided an allocated space to the family member but it seems it is not specifically outlined in the contract as you said

Clause 1 on the other hand says "you and any person living in your home must not park a vehicle anywhere on our property except on a parking area we have set aside or in a garage that you rent with the property".

So the first thing we need to think about is does your allocated bay fall under clause 1, clause 2 or both.

with relation to this i feel the contract does not define a "commercial vehicle", also it does not specify where a breach in contract occurs that the tenant would incur penantly

Also indeed I am told this is housing association,

1) When the relative moved in was the tenancy agreement you have shown us the tenancy agreement they signed

yes

2) When did the UK CPM signs change to say "no commercial vehicles", 3) When did the relative move in and when did the problems first start

they are unsure about the change this but they moved in in 2009 and the problems with mass ticketing started last year

4) Were UK CPM in place when the relative moved in

apprently not and they had taken over from another PPC but they are unsure when.

I will look to write an email for them today to the MP as suggested.
thanks

lee_ca

1. The contract is with a managing agent, not with the landlord. Is that the correct managing agent?

The family member first went to the council re: fine and was told it had nothing to do with them and to go to the landlord which is Hyde Marlet who are both the landlord and housing association. Hyde Marlet's response was in the email outlined a bit further up.

2. The contract was said to be signed on 24/1/13 and signs installed, but it was clearly varied. The site plan gives a start date of November 2012 (so which is it?) And that same document then says that commercial vehicles were permitted after 7pm until rules changed in June 2016.

I am told the contract was signed on 28.10.2009 - nothing else was ever signed after even when the new car parking company came in a signs went up etc

3. Were you notified of each and every rule change?

doesn’t seem this ever happened

4. Nothing in that contract gives UKCPM the authority to issue court proceedings on behalf of the landowner, unless of course it's incomplete. The process of issuing proceedings being distinct from authority to issue tickets

exactly the agreement is with the landlord and the tenant and nothing to indicate a penalty. Also it does not specify what a commercial vehicle is.

5. Finally, it's a good old forbidding sign. If you were never permitted to park there you were never able to agree to the terms of a parking contract so, at least in principle, cannot have agreed to pay £100 for breaching any of the conditions.

what would this mean in terms of a defence?

Interestingly Hyde and Marlet when contacted about this subsequently contacted CPM presumably to enquire/cancel this and were told by them that the tenant was not allowed to park "commercial vehicles"! How would the landlord be taking instructions from the car parking company when it should be them dictated the terms and conditions essentially!

thanks again for your help and everyone else’s!

safarmuk

is that a matter of hoping they see this thread or can I message them?

Jonersh swung by and I have informed LOC123 of your thread and asked her to take a look if she can.

I cannot stress strongly enough that in your technical situation you should listen and take the advice of Jonersh and LOC123 over everything else. Although they do not act in their professional capacities here they have very relevant real world experience and are two of our best and most trusted forum posters (you can verify this by their "post" and "thanks" counts and the ratio between them). Follow their advice and hopefully it will help you. I will also assist with other areas where I can and on more pure parking related matters (such as signage) other posters can chip in.

All this should be done on the forum itself.

I'll post more of my advice later. In the meantime start researching the advice you have been given above with respect to forming a defence (look at other threads) and draft that letter to the MP (you can post it here for review if you want). Also maybe consider utilizing the press?

Umkomaas

I’ve only skimmed over the thread, so this may have already been mentioned. Looking through their evidence pack, the Notice to Driver (NtD) windscreen ticket shows UKCPM being BPA AOS members (not the IPC).

While it may not be a showstopper, it should be added to your case as they should be operating under the BPA Code of Practice and POPLA should have been offered to you. You say that their case is completely confused and confusing and the error in their ticketing exemplifies this.

[Deleted User]

@lee ca
https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/208607905--Forbidding-Signs?mobile_site=true

There appear to have been numerous changes to what is produced to court as the contract. The contract is with a managing agent. If that agent is no longer in place it's not valid.

Further the documents self evidently cannot all form part of the contract because of the different dates. The contract appears to contain no request for restrictions on commercial vehicles.

lee_ca

Many thanks.
So in forming a defence it seems the salient points would be:
1) that the contract is between the Housing Association (landlord) and the defendant and no contract exists between the defendant and UKCPM LTD
2) Would any of you consider that car park sign inadequate? The “no commercial vehicle” part seems to be stuck on and is not particularly obvious.
3) Would anyone also consider that this sign is similar to the “forbidding sign” which was outlined in case mentioned by Johnersh?

I am not aware POPLA was offered but I would look into this further (as mentioned this is not me involved in the case, I am simply trying to help a family member after they were robbed in broad daylight for £440 by this company)

I still don’t feel I have much to flesh out a defence yet but hopefully with continuing feedback from you guys I will be able to start soon.
Thank you all once a again

safarmuk

Couple of points of order to clear up so we know the timeline we are working to:

* What date was the claim made?
* Did you acknowledge it on MCOL leaving the defence blank to give yourself the additional time?

You need to be 100% on top of your dates to ensure you get everything in on time, defence, DQs, Witness Statements etc.

If you can lay out the dates you are aware of and what has been done on the MCOL website to date by the Defendant, that would be helpful. My concern here is that Gladstones have filed a defence (and they are usually late or right on the limit) but you haven't filed a defence yet.
If you are a bit confused Bargepoles post in the Newbies thread details the MCOL process.

lee_ca

thanks. will look to find all this info asap.