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POPLA appeal rejected - has mom ruined her chances?
CM295
Posts: 6 Forumite
Hi everyone. I hate that I am having to start a new thread as I successfully had a parking eye charge cancelled a few months ago by reading the excellent newbies thread and researching the other threads on here. But I am seeking some advice after spending a few hours tonight trawling through but still unsure how to tackle this one...
I'm not best please with my mom....she has had a PCN from Premier Parking, failed to ask for any help, sent a bit of a pathetic appeal, outed herself as the driver, sent an even worse POPLA appeal and now doesn't know what to do. (eyeroll, right?)
The backstory goes, she has been a member of fitness first gym for like 15+ years. Always displays her parking permit clearly in the window, didn't go for about 2 months, went back as normal and failed to realise she now has to enter her reg into a machine inside the gym to validate parking. Nobody in the gym advised her but she *thinks* they had a sign up. The PCN came through, she contacted the gym who were unable to help as the ice rink next door are the landowners and Premier Parking operate on behalf of them. Same thing has happened to at least 3 other gym go-ers.
She sent the first appeal detailing the above story which they of course rejected. Then sent the same story to POPLA which they have rejected and sent this response:
The Appellants vehicle entered the site 19:00 and exited at 20:18.
We are unable to trace that the Appellants vehicle was registered for a permit on the date of the contravention or that a payment was made. Please see Other Evidence.
The Appellant states “She has been a member of Fitness First Gym since it opened and due to illness, she has not been attending for quite a few months. On 11th September she attended a spin class at Fitness First which started at 7.00pm and also did a few weights, she then left the gym after an hour and a half approximately and did not realise that the parking card that she displayed on her car dashboard (members were given these cards ages ago to permit them to park in the car park and she has displayed it ever since), was no longer a valid card and that there is now a machine for entering her number plate.”
The signage states “No stopping or waiting. If you cannot pay or register your vehicle for any reason do not park.”
If the Appellant was in any doubt or concern as to her paying for an incorrect vehicle registration she could have called Premier Park to report this. Our number is on the signage.
On phoning our number on the signage, the voice requests the caller to select option 2 to report a fault. Once this has been selected, the voice asks for the motorist’s vehicle registration, the location in which they are parked and any problems they are experiencing with the machines. The voice then goes on to state, “Please note if you cannot pay for parking, do not park.”
We can confirm we did not receive any telephone calls regarding the Appellant’s vehicle.
When entering onto a managed private car park, a motorist might enter into a contract by remaining on the land for a reasonable period. The signage at the site sets out the terms and conditions of this contract. Therefore, upon entry to the car park, the driver should have reviewed the terms and conditions before deciding to park.
13 Grace periods – according to the British Parking Association Code of Practice
13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
The BPA Code of Practice states that “Signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including the hours of darkness if and when parking enforcement activity takes place at those times. This can be achieved in a variety of ways such as by direct lighting or using the lighting for the parking area.” The signage at the entrance to and in and around the site meets the minimum standards set by the BPA. There are lighting columns around the car park and also sufficient ambient lighting in and around the car park and at the payment machines so that the appellant could see the signage and the machines in the dark.
If the motorist remains in the car park for a period longer than is “reasonable” for the purposes of Section 13.2, we would consider this parking also. As the appellants vehicle remained on site for 1 hour and 18 minutes, we would consider this more than reasonable and class it as parking.
The Driver remained on site and therefore agreed to the terms and conditions.
If the Driver felt for any reason, that he was not able to adhere to the terms and conditions, then he would have had sufficient opportunity to choose not to park and depart the site.
We acknowledge the comments made by the appellant in that she was not advised by the staff members to register her vehicle. The staff are not obliged to bring the parking terms to the motorist’s attention, and it is the motorist’s responsibility read the signs and act in accordance with the terms and conditions stated. By remaining in site, the appellant has agreed to comply with the terms or risk the incurrence of a PCN.
The appellant states that the driver was unaware of the terms and conditions, the driver of the vehicle does not need to have read the terms and conditions of the contract to accept it. There is only the requirement that the driver is afforded the opportunity to read and understand the terms and conditions of the contract before accepting it. It is the driver’s responsibility to seek out the terms and conditions, and ensure they understand them, before agreeing to the contract and parking.
The Appellants vehicle was parked on site for 1 hour and 18 minutes and no payment or kiosk entry was made for the vehicle parked on site. Therefore, a Parking Charge Notice was issued.
It is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that they have read and parked in compliance with the terms and conditions. On this occasion, the Appellant did not.
We request that the Appellant's appeal be refused.
Sorry that is ridiculously long and I'm sure nobody needed to read the contents of my moms workout (spin class and a few weights in case you missed it). My questions now are:
1) I doubt we can save this now but do we add comments? If so, what?! The comments "must relate to the grounds of appeal you submitted when first lodging your appeal with POPLA". Is there anything to add to this 'appeal'?
2) Next step - Do we just ignore and wait for further letters? Debt recovery? Court papers?
I have emailed the ice rink (landowners) so hopefully they can do something to help or cancel it. I've contacted the gym myself and they have said the same thing - not their land so they can't do anything.
And I've researched Premier Parking and a link found on here suggests that we have a less than 1 in 1000 chance of going to court. So that's positive.
Again, sorry to start a thread! I know it must be frustrating dealing with n00bs. Honestly, I was so grateful for all the fab advice and guidance on here that helped me win before! x
I'm not best please with my mom....she has had a PCN from Premier Parking, failed to ask for any help, sent a bit of a pathetic appeal, outed herself as the driver, sent an even worse POPLA appeal and now doesn't know what to do. (eyeroll, right?)
The backstory goes, she has been a member of fitness first gym for like 15+ years. Always displays her parking permit clearly in the window, didn't go for about 2 months, went back as normal and failed to realise she now has to enter her reg into a machine inside the gym to validate parking. Nobody in the gym advised her but she *thinks* they had a sign up. The PCN came through, she contacted the gym who were unable to help as the ice rink next door are the landowners and Premier Parking operate on behalf of them. Same thing has happened to at least 3 other gym go-ers.
She sent the first appeal detailing the above story which they of course rejected. Then sent the same story to POPLA which they have rejected and sent this response:
The Appellants vehicle entered the site 19:00 and exited at 20:18.
We are unable to trace that the Appellants vehicle was registered for a permit on the date of the contravention or that a payment was made. Please see Other Evidence.
The Appellant states “She has been a member of Fitness First Gym since it opened and due to illness, she has not been attending for quite a few months. On 11th September she attended a spin class at Fitness First which started at 7.00pm and also did a few weights, she then left the gym after an hour and a half approximately and did not realise that the parking card that she displayed on her car dashboard (members were given these cards ages ago to permit them to park in the car park and she has displayed it ever since), was no longer a valid card and that there is now a machine for entering her number plate.”
The signage states “No stopping or waiting. If you cannot pay or register your vehicle for any reason do not park.”
If the Appellant was in any doubt or concern as to her paying for an incorrect vehicle registration she could have called Premier Park to report this. Our number is on the signage.
On phoning our number on the signage, the voice requests the caller to select option 2 to report a fault. Once this has been selected, the voice asks for the motorist’s vehicle registration, the location in which they are parked and any problems they are experiencing with the machines. The voice then goes on to state, “Please note if you cannot pay for parking, do not park.”
We can confirm we did not receive any telephone calls regarding the Appellant’s vehicle.
When entering onto a managed private car park, a motorist might enter into a contract by remaining on the land for a reasonable period. The signage at the site sets out the terms and conditions of this contract. Therefore, upon entry to the car park, the driver should have reviewed the terms and conditions before deciding to park.
13 Grace periods – according to the British Parking Association Code of Practice
13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
The BPA Code of Practice states that “Signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including the hours of darkness if and when parking enforcement activity takes place at those times. This can be achieved in a variety of ways such as by direct lighting or using the lighting for the parking area.” The signage at the entrance to and in and around the site meets the minimum standards set by the BPA. There are lighting columns around the car park and also sufficient ambient lighting in and around the car park and at the payment machines so that the appellant could see the signage and the machines in the dark.
If the motorist remains in the car park for a period longer than is “reasonable” for the purposes of Section 13.2, we would consider this parking also. As the appellants vehicle remained on site for 1 hour and 18 minutes, we would consider this more than reasonable and class it as parking.
The Driver remained on site and therefore agreed to the terms and conditions.
If the Driver felt for any reason, that he was not able to adhere to the terms and conditions, then he would have had sufficient opportunity to choose not to park and depart the site.
We acknowledge the comments made by the appellant in that she was not advised by the staff members to register her vehicle. The staff are not obliged to bring the parking terms to the motorist’s attention, and it is the motorist’s responsibility read the signs and act in accordance with the terms and conditions stated. By remaining in site, the appellant has agreed to comply with the terms or risk the incurrence of a PCN.
The appellant states that the driver was unaware of the terms and conditions, the driver of the vehicle does not need to have read the terms and conditions of the contract to accept it. There is only the requirement that the driver is afforded the opportunity to read and understand the terms and conditions of the contract before accepting it. It is the driver’s responsibility to seek out the terms and conditions, and ensure they understand them, before agreeing to the contract and parking.
The Appellants vehicle was parked on site for 1 hour and 18 minutes and no payment or kiosk entry was made for the vehicle parked on site. Therefore, a Parking Charge Notice was issued.
It is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that they have read and parked in compliance with the terms and conditions. On this occasion, the Appellant did not.
We request that the Appellant's appeal be refused.
Sorry that is ridiculously long and I'm sure nobody needed to read the contents of my moms workout (spin class and a few weights in case you missed it). My questions now are:
1) I doubt we can save this now but do we add comments? If so, what?! The comments "must relate to the grounds of appeal you submitted when first lodging your appeal with POPLA". Is there anything to add to this 'appeal'?
2) Next step - Do we just ignore and wait for further letters? Debt recovery? Court papers?
I have emailed the ice rink (landowners) so hopefully they can do something to help or cancel it. I've contacted the gym myself and they have said the same thing - not their land so they can't do anything.
And I've researched Premier Parking and a link found on here suggests that we have a less than 1 in 1000 chance of going to court. So that's positive.
Again, sorry to start a thread! I know it must be frustrating dealing with n00bs. Honestly, I was so grateful for all the fab advice and guidance on here that helped me win before! x
0
Comments
-
Losing at POPLA is no big deal.
Many recent reports about POPLA indicates that they
have lost the plot with clueless assessors.
All part of the great parking scam
The PPC will relish in this raw sewage and pass to one
of the idiot debt collectors who spout even more raw sewage
DRP are one of the famous powerless debt collectors who
send out recycled raw sewage
You ignore all the debt collector junk and if you receive
a county court claim come back here for all the help you need0 -
Thank you for the reply! Will definitely be ignoring any rubbish from any debt trolls.
Do you advise adding comments to the rejected appeal then, or not to bother? Not really sure what is worth commenting anyway to be honest.0 -
-
she still needs to be more forceful with the gym .....
is she still a member ?
has she been to complain at the ice rink next door ?
tell her to ask for the real manager not the customer service .....
tell her to ask for a 'named person' who will be called if this progresses to court .........
it is part bluff .... but some how seams to be able to focus minds towards helping ....
Ralph:cool:0 -
Yes, always add comments to try to steer POPLA the right way.Do you advise adding comments to the rejected appeal then, or not to bother? Not really sure what is worth commenting anyway to be honest.
Email some comments to POPLA (because this won't fit in the Portal!) e.g. these spring to mind:
- PP have failed to show that they complied with the BPA CoP, which requires additional signage at a site where the rules, restrictions or method of enforcement has changed, which it has done, but without my knowledge.
- The evidence talks about 'he' (the appellant is me and I am female) so clearly it's a template.
- The operator admits that the appellant ''did not realise that the parking card that she displayed on her car dashboard...''. Since they accept that I ''DID NOT REALISE'' that they had moved the goalposts, then they are aware that no contract was formed (no ''agreement on a charge'' exists if a driver relying on the authority from their permit, does not realise there can be any contravention).
- The failure was that of the operator, not drawing new terms prominently to the attention of a driver who would have no reason to seek out terms when I was familiar with the location and had a permit, which they also admit I displayed.
- Where is the evidence that my permit was no longer valid? There is none.
- Where is the evidence that reasonable efforts were made by PP, to ask the Gym to inform their existing members with (no expiry date) permits, that they would no longer be covered by them after an unknown date? I am aware of 3 other Gym members caught in the same trap, and no doubt we are just the tip of the iceberg.
- As the Gym has all the contact details of all permit-holding members why did this operator not take the reasonable step of requesting that the onsite facilities (Gym and Ice rink) email or write to alert their members to cancel what they are describing as 'invalid' permits? No evidence has been supplied that any steps at all were taken except to rock up with a few cardboard signs and an ANPR camera system, sit back and milk the Gym users.
- Gym users with a permit would have no reason to think they need to re-read the signs every time they visit. People like me had a valid permit, they've been told to display it and in my case I did just that.
- There was nothing clearly meeting Lord Denning's ''red hand rule'' (requiring very prominent, effectively a ''red arrow with a red hand pointing to it'' display of unexpected onerous terms) to tell me to read any new terms, to throw away my permit and/or to take any different steps than at my last visit.
- The burden clearly rests with this operator to ensure existing site users are properly informed of changes. The BPA CoP agrees and requires that new terms MUST have additional signs and steps taken to draw the change of regime to people used to the old rules. This is necessary because existing service users will not have cause to read a sign every time, just in case somehow their permit has become out of date (despite it not having an expiry date).
- That would be a farce - an analogy would be, imagine being unreasonably expected (but not actually directed) to re-read your terms of use for a phone or laptop every time you switch it on(!), ''just in case'' the t&cs have changed and impose a £100 fine on you despite having a licence/contract permitting use already, yet the company has hidden the terms in the same place as before with no notice of any change!
- POPLA please see this from a permit-holder's point of view. Putting up new signs on top of old signs is not enough.
- The operator protests: ''(members were given these cards ages ago to permit them to park in the car park and she has displayed it ever since)''. They have made no effort to explain what they mean by ''ages ago'' and no effort to prove that my permit was somehow ''invalid'' and from what date?
- The operator says about their signs:
If there is no offer to stop or wait because it is expressly forbidden, then there is no contract or licence offered at all, unlike in the Beavis case where a free licence was offered to drivers.The signage states “No stopping or waiting. If you cannot pay or register your vehicle for any reason do not park.”
- And, as I had already ''registered my vehicle'' as a Gym member to get my permit, the sign created no obligation upon me to do anything. It is not reasonable to suggest that those words relate to me, a permit-holder who has already registered.
- No signs mentioned to Gym users that ''old permits are now invalid'' or ''Gym users must re-register'' therefore there is no evidence to suggest that I had to do anything.
- The operator says:
But the operator knows Gym users like me, displaying our permits like we always had before, had no cause to have ''doubt or concern''.If the Appellant was in any doubt or concern as to her paying for an incorrect vehicle registration she could have called Premier Park to report this. Our number is on the signage.
- And the above wording again shows they have copied & pasted from another appeal which talks about ''paying for an incorrect vehicle registration''(?!) which has nothing whatsoever to do with my case!
- This is irrelevant to my case, again PP have used an old template about ''paying'' or ''reporting a fault(?!):On phoning our number on the signage, the voice requests the caller to select option 2 to report a fault. Once this has been selected, the voice asks for the motorist’s vehicle registration, the location in which they are parked and any problems they are experiencing with the machines. The voice then goes on to state, “Please note if you cannot pay for parking, do not park.”
- The operator pointlessly protests:
Why would they? I had a permit and had no reason to pay, or phone, or have any concerns at all about my displayed permit!We can confirm we did not receive any telephone calls regarding the Appellant’s vehicle.
- The operator says:
But this operator WAS so obliged to draw the change of terms to my attention.''We acknowledge the comments made by the appellant in that she was not advised by the staff members to register her vehicle. The staff are not obliged to bring the parking terms to the motorist’s attention...''
This is their failure and the PCN was therefore not properly given.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
you are lucky .......
you will not get better advice that this .....
one day I hope to be nearly this good
Ralph:cool:0 -
Coupon-mad, you are amazing. Thank you SO much.
Ralph-y - she is still a member and I am going to go with her to ask to speak to someone more senior and also speak to someone at the ice rink.0
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