Retrospective Planning Permission and Buidling Regulations

Valkyrie888

Dear Slinky,

Apparently, according to the vendor, the tenant is happy to leave. I'd be happy for him to stay, I don't want to see an old man homeless but I don't want to maintain the status quo and continue with the unlawful planning situation and pay for an annex but get a cow shed. If the vendor doesn't wish to request a CLD, I would apply for one upon completion of the sale and put in the necessary staffwork to support it.

Regards,

Valkyrie

lincroft1710

You are attempting to buy a smallholding of x acres together with a 3 bedroom house and various outbuildings. The value of the "annex" would be little different to that of an outbuilding.

So on this basis make your offer. Don't start making "comprehensive cases", enquiring about possibility of lawful development, because as it is that building wouldn't meet building regs for even 1987.

Just go into or phone the agent and say I wish to offer £y, the offer will remain on the table for 7 days. The vendor will either
1. Outright reject
2. Negotiate or counter offer
3. Accept

If 1. forget it, you are too far apart. Or just wait a few months and see if it is still for sale, he may then be more amenable.

Valkyrie888

Hi Lincroft,

Thank you for the reply.

I believe that the asking price reflects the vendor's insistence that there is no issue with the annex.

I personally think that a self-contained annex adds more value than an outbuilding. It costs about £16K to put up a 60' by 20' block barn. I think it would be in the region of £30-£40K to put in a self-contained annex. Clearly an outbuilding has income generating potential (storage etc) but an annex can be used as a long let, holiday let or B&B.

As you point out, the building more than likely wouldn't pass 1987 building regulations; so it is fair to surmise that even with a CLD, the annex might not be safe - in this eventuality I imagine my only option would be a complete demolition and rebuild as current building regs require inspection of footings and foundations. Even then, the planning department might not approve a reconstruction.

Basically, if it is legal it probably won't be habitable. If you were having a survey done on the house you were buying and the roof was knacked, you would adjust your offer accordingly; I'm trying to do the same.

Kind regards,

Valkyrie

45002

Valkyrie888 wrote: »

Annex Background. The vendor is marketing the property as having a detached bungalow annex providing an additional source of income; the reality is the annex is a converted cow shed with a corrugated asbestos roof with no insulation and with a crude internal layout. The tenant is the previous owner of the farm, who has lived there for 15 or so years from £350 pcm. It is not declared to the council, so the tenant does not pay council tax. The annex has a separate oil tank and electricity runs through a smart meter from the farm's mains and the vendor charges the tenant based on the smart meter readings. Water is sourced from a borehole and sewerage is via a cesspit/sceptic tank.


Valkyrie

In case the tenant does not move out of there own free will and you purchased the property with the tenant still in place.

I would find out Exactly the date they 1st moved into the annex, as you may have problems getting a possession order should you ever need one.

They could have lived in the annex a lot long than 15 years ?

Don't just trust what the vendor tells you.



...........

chappers

Lincroft is right, well at least down the right tracks.
I have looked at lots of similar places, in Pembs too, over the past few years before settling on the place we are buying and it boils down to a) whether you are looking for a place with an annexe for additional income or b) a house with land and out buildings.
You are clearly aware that each have different values.
Offer accordingly taking the lack of regularised PP in to account.

If the annexe is properly converted and is a self contained dwelling then you will be able to achieve an LDC if it is a cowshed with carpets then there is nothing to apply for. It is your judgement as to which it is and therefore the appropriate offer to make and if your unsure then walk.
You could of course as suggested bat it back into the vendors court and let him apply for an LDC then make an offer accordingly, based upon the outcome.
Pembrokeshire may well be the wild west as you call it, but planning is the one thing they are all over.
Personally if you have doubts I would walk away, there are plenty of these sorts of property about in the area.
Out of interest do you have a link to it. Just wondering if I may have viewed it.

Valkyrie888

Dear 45002, Chappers,

Thank you for the responses and advice.

The tenant has lived in the annexe immediately after selling the property to the current vendor; so establishing the date through the Land Registry should be fairly straight forward.

Chappers; I'm fairly content either way with the annexe. On the one hand, a monthly income would be good but it is dependent on getting CLD and signed off for regularisation and may result in me having to demolish and rebuild which is outside of my budget. If the vendor doesn't comply with my request, then hopefully the asking price can be readjusted to take into account that there is no longer a self-contained annexe. In the current climate, I'd rather save on the acquisition and forgo the annexe; and having now received a good level of advice, I'm pretty sure that CLD won't be granted despite the continuous occupation. I phoned the Pembs CC today and went through the situation without specifics and they said due to the location it would most likely be opposed. I'm afraid I can't put a link up as I'm pretty sure that my comments could be seen as defamatory or something (vendor, tenant and agent).

Kind regards,

Valkyrie

Doozergirl

The building regulations for a conversion are different to that of a new build and would certainly *not* require new foundations.

Your main issue will be planning. A knock down and rebuild is not a possibility when the building itself pre-exists the Building Regulations in their current legal form. Just because you are not in a development envelope, does not mean that there is no policy for development - there will be in the Local Development Plan. Pembrokeshire, being largely rural and also a holiday destination will certainly have carefully considered policies. Wales itself seems to be more lenient on new build, but this is pre-existing.

The Building Regulations allow for enforcement only with a court order. It would be pretty extreme circumstances under which they would ever consider this, usually where the building is a structural risk and more often where use is commercial and more people are put at risk. In 12.5 years on this board I would have a not inconsiderable passive income if I had a pound for every post about potential breaches of BR and how to deal with potential consequences (indemnity policies). I have never seen a post about actual enforcement. In 20 years of building, we've never had a BCO bat an eyelid at previous work.

If it is incredibly rudimentary, then your own conscience should be wanting to upgrade before building control ever get involved. The roof sounds like a case in point to me. A corrugated asbestos roof is not suitable to house people under. This should be budgeted for replacement. You should be satisfying yourself with a surveyor' report as to the condition. If it is so bad (I suspect an alcoholic farmer, retired for 30 years may not be the most demanding of tenants), then it may hold much value based on its current integrity.

chappers

Valkyrie888 wrote: »

I phoned the Pembs CC today and went through the situation without specifics and they said due to the location it would most likely be opposed.

They can say whatever they want but provided the statutory enforcement periods have passed there is nothing they can do it is national planning law and can't be overridden by local plan. Even though Pembrokeshire has some of the strictest planning in the UK

There would be exceptions for;
Listed buildings and their curtilages, only if the building in question was originally built prior to 1949)
Areas of special scientific interest
ANOBs in certain circumstances
Historical sites and ancient monuments.

Building control won't be interested unless it is classed as a structure likely to cause harm to the public.

lincroft1710

chappers wrote: »

Building control won't be interested unless it is classed as a structure likely to cause harm to the public.

It has a corrugated asbestos cement roof, so a possibility

lincroft1710

Valkyrie888 wrote: »

I personally think that a self-contained annex adds more value than an outbuilding. It costs about £16K to put up a 60' by 20' block barn. I think it would be in the region of £30-£40K to put in a self-contained annex. Clearly an outbuilding has income generating potential (storage etc) but an annex can be used as a long let, holiday let or B&B.

As you point out, the building more than likely wouldn't pass 1987 building regulations; so it is fair to surmise that even with a CLD, the annex might not be safe - in this eventuality I imagine my only option would be a complete demolition and rebuild as current building regs require inspection of footings and foundations. Even then, the planning department might not approve a reconstru
ction.

As it stands you have a building which is OK as an outbuilding but although being used as someone's sole or main residence is clearly of substandard construction and does not have planning approval. Therefore its value is at best only slightly more than that of an outbuilding.

It may be that the cost to bring this building up to spec to be used as holiday accom might not be economically worth it.