Charges for Installation of Fire Detection System in Victorian Conversation

richdeniro

Hi All,

Today I received a invoice for just over £500 today from the management company of the top floor flat of a Victorian conversion (three floors) that I own for my portion of 'Installation of a Interlinked Automatic Fire Detection and Warning System in the Non Domestic Parts of the Premises'.

There are two other flats in the property so the total bill to fit this system is almost £2k and obviously as leaseholders the communal area any maintenance charges are recharged to us. We are currently in dispute with them about some other charges and are in the process of trying to take the management over ourselves but this is still a few months away from happening.

My question is whether the fire system is likely to be a justifiable expense. The communal area consists of about 20 steps to the first floor and a small hallway area. Obviously I wouldn't want to scrimp on safety and have various fire/gas safety measures within my own flat but £2k just seemed excessive for such a small area.

Thanks in advance.

LEJC

When you are talking about something that is communal living rather than being a property that is wholly lived in and owned by yourself then the safety of others has to be maintained.

presumably you have a health and safety/fire report commissioned on a bi annual basis and presumably this would be a recommendation on that.

In times of the blame culture that exists now and indeed the responsibility to maintain the safety of others it is becoming more likely that these safety measures should be implemented.

justifiable expense...probably in order to cover yourselves in the event of a fire in the building and any subsequent claims that could be made.


Whilst you wouldnt want to scrimp on fire safety in your own flat,it seems strange that you are happy to sacrifice the safety measures outside in the communal areas.....a large fire starting in the communal area is just as likely to destroy you flat in the process.....why not extend fire safety to the whole building???

Doozergirl

https://www.lease-advice.org/advice-guide/section-20-consultation-private-landlords-resident-management-companies-agents/

If consultation is not undertaken, the landlord may not be able to recover costs over £250 per leaseholder.

cjmillsnun

Yes, the fire detection and warning system is an entirely justifiable cost.

As far as whether the cost given is fair and reasonable, you have to consider the scope of the works.

It will involve work to British Standards (BS5389 and BS7671 for the fire system and electrical wiring respectively), several days of work and regular testing and maintenance.

I think you'd be surprised and £2k is actually a very competitive quote.

G_M

The freeholder (who is that?) has a legal duty to undertake risk assessment of the building (or to instruct his management company to do it on his behaf).

If that recommends such a system, and he failed to install it, he could be charged with manslaughter if anyone later died in a fire.

Does that answer your question?

My only surprise here is that it is not costing more.....

Doozergirl

It really depends on what they did as to whether it's worth it!

If they replaced three £20 smoke detectors like-for-like, then no. If they had to connect on to electrics, put in something smart and had to replaster, quite possibly. As my post above, they should have allowed you to review this before undertaking works where any one leaseholder has to pay more than £250. You shouod have been consulted so that it would save you ever having to ask us.

eddddy

Doozergirl wrote: »

If consultation is not undertaken, the landlord may not be able to recover costs over £250 per leaseholder.

Although if urgent work is required (for health and safety reasons), the freeholder can apply to a Tribunal for dispensation from the section 20 consultation.

@richdeniro - do you know if your freeholder has applied to the First Tier Tribunal?

If they haven't, you should only have to pay £250.


(That assumes that it was 'reasonable' to install the fire detection system. If it wasn't 'reasonable' you can challenge the whole amount.)

Time2go

A) that’s quite cheap a quote and b) if one want installed the council could make you anyway.

We had to have one installed 5 years ago after council did an inspection (tenant called them) in a Victorian five story building. It will mean safety and what price you put on that

ComicGeek

I don't know how anyone can comment on price without knowing what the installed system entails. If there is only a ground floor entrance, staircase to first floor and first floor lobby, then the system is likely to only be 2 interlinked smoke detectors with break glass at final exit door. I'm guessing from the OP's description that the top floor flat has it's own entrance from the 1st floor with it's own private stairs - this is pretty typical to get around the issue of having a single staircase that runs beyond 2 floors.

However, I would be interested in hearing why they believed it necessary to install it in the first place, and what the fire risk assessment identified. It wouldn't be required for a two storey single escape stair unless there are concerns over fire separation between the flats and communal space - so it would act as an early warning indicator and hopefully provide sufficient time for the top floor occupants to escape safely down the stairs, rather than waiting in the flat (without fire) for the fire brigade to attend.

That would also require the management company to clearly explain to the OP and the other occupants in the building how they should react to any alarm signal. Unfortunately it's normally this crucial part of the process that gets missed, which makes the whole thing a waste of time...

davidmcn

It seems OTT to me, if we're just talking about a single flight of stairs (as someone who has lived in a variety of flatted accommodation but never one with any fire alarm system covering the communal stairs). I feel that £2000 could probably be better spent on other fire safety measures - I'm sure the vast majority of fires start in and are contained to a single flat.

eddddy

richdeniro wrote: »

...the top floor flat of a Victorian conversion (three floors) ... There are two other flats in the property...

Was the house converted before 1992 and are the other two flats let out by their leaseholders? If so it might make the whole building a section 257 HMO (even though you are a leasholder and owner/occupier) ...

A buildings can also be a HMO where it was converted into self-contained flats AND more than a third of the flats are let to tenants AND the conversion does not comply with the Building Regulations 1991 or later (i.e. converted before June 1992). Often referred to as "Section 257 HMO" after the section in the Housing Act 2004.

Link: https://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guides/housing_act/firesafety.shtml

That might explain the more rigorous fire safety requirements.