Company car- Never received NTK- Liability of leasing company?

lalola

Hello,
I have read NEWBIES but still not confident about what to do now:
-Parked in a retail Car Park managed by Smart Parking Ltd in 18/05/17 (maximum allowed 90 minutes stayed 10 min more).
-Mine is a company car managed by Arval as the leasing company who does not know my personal address, they communicate everything through the company I work for.
-Received an email from my employer-HR (10/7/2017, almost 2 months later) that stating only the following adviced to contact Arval myself to find out more, nothing else was attached and I didn't consider this as a NTK, just ignored it (mainly because it stated Fine Amount: 0.0 £ !):
Reg. number: xxx
Date: 18/05/17
Time: 13:40
Offence: Parking Fine
Description: Overstay
Authority name: Smart Parking
Penalty charge No: xxx
Transaction reference: xxx
Fine amount: £0.00
Admin fee: £12.50

Only yesterday I received at my home address a debt collector letter asking me to pay 160£ etc., it took me a while to understand this was related to that overstayed parking in May. The letter was received by my company one month ago who only forwarded it to me now.

I have missed NTK and the time to appeal to anything! We are responsible ourselves for any fines as users of company cars but is this fair that I've been so poorly informed? Should I claim this to Arval to whom we are renting the car from and who might have received NTK? Do I have to provide my own address from now on in order to make sure I do not miss any communication or it is actually any kind of advantage that they do not know it?

I only rellocated to the UK one year ago due to work, still not familiar with this sort of procedures and very stressed about not knowing what to do! so thank you in advance for your help!

BR

KeithP

Go to the NEWBIES sticky/pinned thread and post #1 is what you need at the moment.

There is a section in there, towards the bottom of that post, under the heading "COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK" which you might find useful.

Coupon-mad

Only yesterday I received at my home address a debt collector letter asking me to pay 160£ etc., it took me a while to understand this was related to that overstayed parking in May. The letter was received by my company one month ago who only forwarded it to me now.

Your company need to urgently name you as the hirer/lessee (NOT DRIVER!!) of the car.

You need your company out of the equation, and you need a NTK to arrive in your name, so you can then appeal as LESSEE and win this because no-one is going to name the driver (are they?!).

So tell your company this is the way forward to transfer liability to you as the lessee. Make sure you vet the letter first so it doesn't name you as driver, but DOES give your postal address and asks Smart to take the matter up with you, by sending you a Notice to Keeper.

lalola

Hello,
contacted the leasing company to find out why I received no communciation and confirmed they failed to name me as the hirer:
"
The correct process is that we would write to the issuing authority and refer you details to them so they can contact you directly. Unfortunately, due to a procedural error this did not happen at the time. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused by this.
Hopefully you will be able to use the information contained within this email to appeal the fine. Please feel free to pass on my contact details if the issuer requires any further information.
If your appeal is unsuccessful, we will be happy to cover the difference between the original fine amount and the current outstanding balance. Please let me have copies of letters/supporting documents if you would like me to arrange this.
"
So I believe I have not yet been appointed as the hirer therefore unable to appeal?

My question is, am I able to appeal this now to the PPC using the argument that Smart Parking have failed on sending the information to the hirer? given the legislation which states the following under the "Hire vehicles" paragraph :


(2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—
(a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
(b)a copy of the hire agreement; and
(c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.



Any advice is very welcome! thank you in advance.
BR

Fruitcake

I'm no expert in this field but I believe that: -

The registered keeper is liable because they have not transferred liability to the hirer/lessee/day to day keeper. They have admitted as such in their email.

It is not a fine.

There is no issuing authority. This is an unregulated private parking company.

You can try an appeal direct to the parking scammers as lessee/hirer. I think there is information about this in the NEWBIES thread.
If the scammers reject this, they should go back to the registered keeper/hire/lease company.
You should contact them (hire/lease company) and state that because you did not receive the PCN in a timely manner, you have been denied the right to appeal and therefore the hire/lease company have failed to transfer liability to you, and therefore they remain liable for the charge.

You should however wait for the more knowledgeable posters to comment first.

Edna_Basher

You should also highlight to the lease company that Smart don't even attempt to use POFA to claim unpaid parking charges from the registered keeper. The lease company cannot be liable for this charge - indeed there is / was no liability to transfer to the hirer.

Coupon-mad

contacted the leasing company to find out why I received no communciation and confirmed they failed to name me as the hirer:
"
The correct process is that we would write to the issuing authority and refer you details to them so they can contact you directly. Unfortunately, due to a procedural error this did not happen at the time. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused by this.
Hopefully you will be able to use the information contained within this email to appeal the fine. Please feel free to pass on my contact details if the issuer requires any further information.
If your appeal is unsuccessful,

Insist they do it NOW.

Tell them YOU CANNOT APPEAL like this because there is no appeal window open to you and a ''fob-off'' saying ''it is too late to appeal'' would be the best you would get (and you won't be paying the damn scam!).

It is simple. To appeal as hirer/lessee, you need a NTK to be sent to you (in your name) first, and they only way that happens is if the lease firm names the hirer/lessee. Remind them NOT to describe you as the 'driver' - a word that should not appear on their letter anywhere - TELL THEM THAT.

That then generates a NTK to that named hirer/lessee. That's what MUST happen, never mind if it is technically later than should have been the case; they MUST do that. No emails, no assumptions about paying the stupid fake/scam PCN.

Tell them their failure exposes THEIR (potential, but in fact a fantasy in this on-POFA case) liability, which is still not yet discharged, and they need to unpick it NOW. By doing so, it's a win-win situation for you both: they will be indisputably not liable, should Smart later try a small claim, and in your case you will then have the chance to receive a Notice to Keeper to appeal, which you happen to know, as a hirer/lessee, is easily winnable.

lalola

Thank you all for your advice, it is very appreciated,


Asked the leasing company to name me as the hirer/lessee (not the driver) in orther to transfer liability and their reply (extracting what the fines team wrote to the representative I am dealing with) confuses me:

""
The charge has escalated too far, it is has gone past Notice to Keeper stage, the driver can appeal directly with Zenith or as you have advised below pay the escalated amount and charge the customer the original £60.00.
I noticed in the email trail you advised the driver we didn't refer the driver details please see paragraph below -
Arval did provide the hirer details to Smart Parking, I have spoken to Smart Parking and they transferred liability to the driver on the 06/06/2017. (we didn't provide the fine notification to the driver)
We are unable to provide a referral letter, the parking charge notice is now in the driver’s name, she will be able to appeal if she has valid grounds.
""


So I think Arval doesn't know how this works! they are useless...I have not received a single letter from Smart Parking Ltd.
I am about to write to Smart Parking directly, any suggestions/letter templates I can use?
Thank you very much in advance!
BR

Coupon-mad

Send that email to Smart Parking and ask why they never issued a PCN 'Notice to Hirer' to you as the hirer, because Arval are saying that they've spoken to Smart and that 'liability was transferred on 6th June. State that this has denied you the right to appeal the notice, as is the right of a named hirer/lessee.

State that you are intending to complain to the BPA about Smart not sending any NTH.

lalola

Hello, thank you very much @Coupon-mad for your advice! this is what I just sent. Should I have avoided mentioning the "I formally challenge..." ?
I only though of it after sending it, I hope it works anyways....I will post again if there's any relevant response from them.


"Dear Sir/Madam,
I hope this email finds you well.

I am writing to formally challenge the validity of this PCN as the keeper of the car with registration number xxxxxxx. I have recently received two threatening letters from the debt collector “Zenith Collections” in the form of an extortionate demand to pay them £160.00 for an alleged overstay in xxxxxx Retail Car Park in xxxxx in May 18th. However I have never received any communication/Notice to Keeper by Smart Parking Ltd and more than 5 months have passed since the alleged overstay. Why didn’t you issue a PCN 'Notice to Hirer' to me as the hirer? This has denied me the right to appeal the notice (and even to know about it).

I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.
You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why Smart Parking Ltd. did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

Given that Smart Parking Ltd. has failed to send NTK to the hirer, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge.

I am intending to complain to the BPA about Smart Parking Ltd not sending any NTH.

I look forward to hearing from you.
...
"
Thank you again!
BR

Coupon-mad

As long as you've given them your name and postal address, they should not write back to Arval.

Meanwhile, email Arval and explain this was never a POFA PCN and they (Arval) never had any potential liability nor was the charge in fact their business to decide how to proceed (and certainly not to pay, which you will not be doing, and it's your decision not theirs with a non-POFA PCN).

But add that you've now contacted Smart Parking and they have your name and address as hirer/lessee, so there should be no more letters legally allowed to be sent to Arval about the matter, because parking firms can't revert to a registered keeper under such circumstances,especially not Smart who don't ever use the POFA. Tell them if another letter arrives about this farce, to pass it to you and you will complain to the British Parking Association.

Finish by saying, under no circumstances do Arval have ANY business to pay a charge that isn't a POFA-worded one (which includes ALL PCNs fom Smart Parking who simply don't use the Act - never have - and can't hold owner/keepers liable). And that for the avoidance of doubt, if Arval pay this charge in error or by misguided design (pretending the t&cs allow them to/or that they wrongly think a non-POFA PCN can be used against Arval) then you WILL NOT reimburse them, and will instigate a chargeback at their own cost, if they wrongly pay it and try to take the money by card from you.