CEL defence draft

Coupon-mad

Don't confuse the OP with your 'hunches' - thanks [STRIKE]Ca[/STRIKE]... (sorry, 'logician'). Nothing better to do?

nosferatu1001

Logician - hence why the OP shoudl inform the court the PoC were late, and that they want the claim struck.

logician

Snagger wrote: »

Thank you Nosferatu1001, I intended on calling the court today but I received my POC this morning (26th) in the post, which is 2 days after their deadline. (N1 issue date 4th October)

The details in the POC are very basic. ANPR, Location, Date, time etc

The envelope is 1st class and stamped 25th, the POC inside is dated 11th October.

My question is, do I
a) Contact the court tomorrow still and ask for the claim to be struck out
b) Add to my defence that the claimant failed rule 7.4 which states the particulars of claim to be contained in or served with the claim form or served within 14 days of service of the claim form

I’m aware there are a few other CEL threads ongoing at the minute and that claims made from October this year are a bit different and seem to be somewhat of a learning curve. All help is very much appreciated.

The late particulars of claim are demonstrative of unreasonable conduct by the Claimant and should be brought to the court's and judge's attention.

Whilst late, (and keep the envelope - in fact scan this as an appended page to the defence) they have arrived and provide the OP with more than 10 days to file the defence.

Snagger wrote: »

Ok thanks Coupon-mad, so I looked back through all your recent posts and found the letter you referred to. (Very helpful) So I'll email this to CEL via 2 email addresses which I've found on their website. I'll also post a copy tomorrow, am I right in thinking I should just send it 1st class, not recorded or special delivery?

As I have already filled in my AOS, my deadline is 6th November, what should I do if I don't hear anything back from CEL?


For anyone else in the same boat, below is the letter which Coupon-mad wrote.

Date: 26/10/2017

Dear Sir/Madam,

Claim No. ###########

I am writing to you in regards to a money claim addressed to me by your company, Civil Enforcement Ltd.

I have finally received the Particulars of Claim today (26/10/2017), which are rejected because they should have been sent to me by 23/10/2017 at the latest. Your company is in breach of CPR 7.4 because your particulars have been served out of time. In default of service, it is a fact that Civil Enforcement is in breach.

In order to get permission for late service of particulars, the claimant must apply to court for relief from the sanction (CPR 3.9). The test is that in Denton v TH White Ltd [2014] EWCA Civ 906.

As an unrepresented Litigant-in-Person, I consider that a delay of several days is more than trivial and, in the context of a claimant professionally represented with volume claims before the court, I believe that compliance with the court timetable is an imperative, and your breach has caused me significant detriment.

Accordingly whilst I consider the position, I require a copy of the certificate of service filed at court, verified with a statement of truth from a named individual, confirming the date of service. In the meantime, since no valid Particulars have been served, the matter is unable to proceed and there is no requirement upon me to serve a defence at this stage, and nor will you be able to enforce the claim.

Yours faithfully,

_________________

CEL do not have an email address of service for legal documents.

If you use appeals@ce-service.co.uk then
this is unlikely to be dealt with in time

Likewise posting to CEL - they have mail forwarding and again unlikely to reach the Claimant before the deadline for the defence and providing them with the opportunity to apply for a default judgment.

nosferatu1001 wrote: »

Logician - hence why the OP shoudl inform the court the PoC were late, and that they want the claim struck.

Yes they should include this in their DEFENCE to the court but the OP appears to be simply writing to CEL see post #19
Not everyone has £100 to burn

I have had more claims on behalf of OPs struck out by the court for CEL cases than I have had hot dinners;)

nosferatu1001

It isnt £100 to burn. The strike out is automatic and they get it back in a court order, alongside 2 hours of their time at £19 an hour, direct from CEL.

They provide the OP with 28 days from teh date of service of the PoC, as per 15.4 which I am sure you are aware of?

The period for filing a defence
15.4
(1) The general rule is that the period for filing a defence is –
(a) 14 days after service of the particulars of claim; or
(b) if the defendant files an acknowledgment of service under Part 10, 28 days after service of the particulars of claim.
(Rule 7.4 provides for the particulars of claim to be contained in or served with the claim form or served within 14 days of service of the claim form)

logician

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Don't confuse the OP with your 'hunches' - thanks [STRIKE]Ca[/STRIKE]... (sorry, 'logician'). Nothing better to do?

No doubt Coupon Mad will indemnify the OP and other posters with CEL claims if this 'advice' goes belly up.

nosferatu1001 wrote: »

It isnt £100 to burn. The strike out is automatic and they get it back in a court order, alongside 2 hours of their time at £19 an hour, direct from CEL.

And you have concrete evidence of this with some claims as being successful?

Loadsofchildren123

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73322551#Comment_73322551
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5710008
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5731486
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73313029#Comment_73313029

Snagger

Coupon-mad Don't confuse the OP with your 'hunches

Too late, I've been confused from the start. I'm now considering just paying the debt to get it out of my life. Its taking a lot more time than I expected it to.
As I've already filled out my AOS, how do I go about settling the debt? I don't want a CCJ.

Some of the advice on this site is brilliant, however its not the easiest for a 'newbie' to follow.

nosferatu1001 It isnt £100 to burn. The strike out is automatic and they get it back in a court order, alongside 2 hours of their time at £19 an hour, direct from CEL.

If this happens then I'm leaving myself open for CEL to re apply for a new claim within the next 6 years is that correct? If so Id rather that possibility not to be hanging over me.

logician

Snagger wrote: »

Too late, I've been confused from the start. I'm now considering just paying the debt to get it out of my life. Its taking a lot more time than I expected it to.
As I've already filled out my AOS, how do I go about settling the debt? I don't want a CCJ.

Some of the advice on this site is brilliant, however its not the easiest for a 'newbie' to follow.



If this happens then I'm leaving myself open for CEL to re apply for a new claim within the next 6 years is that correct? If so Id rather that possibility not to be hanging over me.

Your options at this stage are:

a) pay up - I am sure no-one on MSE (including me ) would recommend that at this early stage. Bearing also in mind that a settlement/payment can be made at any stage up to hearing.

b) file a defence -

You are nearly there with that draft tbh -

just need a little bit about the late particulars of claim and that these are signed by "Ashley Cohen" and put him to strict proof the legal capacity he has in signing these particulars .
(google him or search the forum/companies house).

- also the new requirements from 1st October 2017 cover pre-action protocol only .

c) Apply for a strike out - it is not clear from the thread whether you sent the letter/email only to CEL or whether you have formally applied to the court for a strike out with the fee

It is not set in stone how the court will treat the strike-out application IMHO. CPR provides for time to file a defence following receipt of the particulars of claim and you do not want to appear unreasonable by suggesting that receipt of these 3 days late has prejudiced your ability to respond to the claim.

If you do apply for the strike out on this technicality - then the Claimant may possibly be able to re-issue the claim as the matter of the alleged debt has not been determined.

Far better to have the claim struck out on the defence filed following their POCs which leaves the claim dead and buried

If a formal application for a strike out is received by the court, then the Claimant cannot apply for a default judgment until the judge has looked at this.
The matter will bypass (typically) DQ stage and be allocated to track immediately - a Judge will look at your application and reasons for the strike out appliction and make his determination which is not set in stone.

For example the Judge could order you to:
file a defence by a specific date.
Attend a hearing
Strike out the claim with or without costs.
Find a summary judgment for the Claimant on the basis that you failed to file a defence and so on...

Coupon-mad

Snagger wrote: »

If this happens then I'm leaving myself open for CEL to re apply for a new claim within the next 6 years is that correct? If so Id rather that possibility not to be hanging over me.

But we win them and CEL (so far) never proceed to a hearing against one of our defences.

We have clear advice already posted by two solicitors on other CEL threads, which is why I suggested you simply need to read a few.

This forum (the regular posters) are NOT telling people to spend £100 on a N244 strike out application, nor to ignore:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73316057#Comment_73316057

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73316652#Comment_73316652

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73315710#Comment_73315710

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73312299#Comment_73312299


LOC123 does not mean file a N244 when she advises:

''my preference is to be proactive and ask the court to strike out the claim.''

Snagger

Hi everyone, thanks for your ongoing help and patience.
I've been away for a few days with work so was unable to work on this defence.

A quick update, I didn't send CEL the complaint letter about receiving the POC 2 days late.

From reading recent threads it seems the general advice is to ring the court to ask them to have the claim struck out. - I haven't done this.

My personal preference would be to get this claim dealt with by defending and either winning or losing the claim. Id rather that, so I can then forget about it and move on, nullifying the possibility of this claim popping up within the next 6 years. I know a lot of the regular posters will disagree with my standpoint but as I said its my personal preference.

So, the latest point of confusion for me is a post made by LOC123 on another thread regarding the deadline for submission for defence:

Re the time limits - the rules are somewhat unclear where Defendants are mistakenly filing an AoS prior to the PoC being served whether a D has 28 or 14 days to file the Defence. The AoS has not been filed properly under Rule 10.
Johnersh, the other practising solicitor regular, and I have both considered this point and have advised that it is best to err on the side of caution and serve the defence within 14 days of the PoC, which is what is left of the 28 day R15.4(1)(b) time limit following service of the PoC (if you cut out the 14 days for the AoS).

I received my N1 dated 4th October, my understanding was I had 14 days plus 5 to fill in my AOS which I did on 16th of October. Am I right in thinking that my deadline is 28 days plus 5 from 4th October or 14 days from the 'backdated' date on the POC or 14 days from the actual date of POC?
I'm fairly sure my deadline is 28 + 5 from the 4th which would be the 6th November. I just want to be certain.

Ive logged into MCOL and there isn't any information on my claim history about the POC being received by the courts.

My next job is to read through my draft and add a few bits in that have been suggested, I'll then post it up for review.

As always, any advice is very much appreciated.