Charity Box - probate asset?

Savvy_Sue

Another vote for not part of the estate, do not open the box, hand it over to the charity unopened, because you do not know whether it is all her money, or whether she waved it around at a coffee morning, or visitors sometimes dropped a bob or two in.

I work for a small charity, we do use collection tins and buckets, they are sealed in such a way that we can trace who they were given to and check they have not been opened before return. We send a receipt to the collectors once we've opened and counted the money. The money can't be Gift Aided because we can't be sure it's all from a taxpayer, however we do use the Gift Aid Small Donations Scheme which means we do get a top-up on all cash gifts under £20.

alanq

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

...do not open the box,...

Fermion wrote: »

We have found a Charity Collection Box for the "The Children Society" with contents of circa £150.

As the sum in the box is know it seems that the box has already been opened.

Malthusian

alanq wrote: »

As the sum in the box is know it seems that the box has already been opened.

No need to worry about that. The OP isn't a charity fundraiser and had no reason to know or be bound by the Fundraising Regulator's code of practice.

Another vote for a), just hand it back to the charity. It's the charity's property and not part of the estate.

Linton

Something of interest to lawyers perhaps, what actually happens should be that the money is given to the charity.

I would agree with gingernut and unforeseen and vote for it being part of the estate, unless someone can come up with a legal reason why not.

To protect the executor it should be included in the estate accounts as an asset given to charity. Otherwise someone could raise questions at a later date.

Yorkshireman99

Linton wrote: »

Something of interest to lawyers perhaps, what actually happens should be that the money is given to the charity.

I would agree with gingernut and unforeseen and vote for it being part of the estate, unless someone can come up with a legal reason why not.

To protect the executor it should be included in the estate accounts as an asset given to charity. Otherwise someone could raise questions at a later date.

It has always been the property of the charity so is not part of the estate. Quite why there should be any doubt is beyond belief.

securityguy

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

It has always been the property of the charity so is not part of the estate. Quite why there should be any doubt is beyond belief.

Morally, I agree. In law? I can't see any reason why.

Consider the following situation. Someone dies, having (for whatever reason) put a grand of their own money into a charity box they have on the shelf in their house. They have debts of a grand. Do the charity get the money? The other creditors would have good grounds to be cross about that.

OK, the same person doesn't die, but feeling the need for a party, opens said charity box and spends the money on wine and song. What law have they broken? When did the money become the property of the charity?

Sure, executors should give the money to the charity if they possibly can, but if a residual beneficiary says "no, it's part of the estate" or a creditor says "it's part of the estate", I don't know what you'd rely on to say otherwise. Charity collection boxes don't have some special status in law which makes their contents different to any other sort of money box. I agree, morally the answer is obvious.

Yorkshireman99

securityguy wrote: »

Morally, I agree. In law? I can't see any reason why.

Consider the following situation. Someone dies, having (for whatever reason) put a grand of their own money into a charity box they have on the shelf in their house. They have debts of a grand. Do the charity get the money? The other creditors would have good grounds to be cross about that.

OK, the same person doesn't die, but feeling the need for a party, opens said charity box and spends the money on wine and song. What law have they broken? When did the money become the property of the charity?

Sure, executors should give the money to the charity if they possibly can, but if a residual beneficiary says "no, it's part of the estate" or a creditor says "it's part of the estate", I don't know what you'd rely on to say otherwise. Charity collection boxes don't have some special status in law which makes their contents different to any other sort of money box. I agree, morally the answer is obvious.

Assuming the box is a sealed charity one with the usual charity logo and lettering then it clearly belongs to the charity along with any contents. It IS different from a run of the mill money box because it is designed for the specific purpose of collecting money for the charity. The moment anyone puts money in this belongs to the charity. End of story really. If anyone other than the charity subsequently takes money from the box that is theft, plain and simple. Most of the suggestions to the contraray are akin to ill-considered omphaloskepsis.

Malthusian

securityguy wrote: »

Consider the following situation. Someone dies, having (for whatever reason) put a grand of their own money into a charity box they have on the shelf in their house. They have debts of a grand. Do the charity get the money? The other creditors would have good grounds to be cross about that.

They can whistle for it. Best of luck fighting the charity's lawyers.

OK, the same person doesn't die, but feeling the need for a party, opens said charity box and spends the money on wine and song. What law have they broken? When did the money become the property of the charity?

Having read the fundraiser's code, it's pretty clear that if the charity handed one of their members an official fundraising box, they'd be under no illusions that that the box, and any money that was put into it, would be anything other than the charity's.

Of course in the privacy of your own home you could put money in and steal it back a hundred times over and no-one would ever know. On the other hand, if you held a fundraising coffee morning with a Facebook event at which a dozen people watched each other put money in the box, and then you told the charity that sadly you never managed to get any donations, I imagine they wouldn't just let the matter drop.

Sure, executors should give the money to the charity if they possibly can, but if a residual beneficiary says "no, it's part of the estate" or a creditor says "it's part of the estate", I don't know what you'd rely on to say otherwise. Charity collection boxes don't have some special status in law which makes their contents different to any other sort of money box. I agree, morally the answer is obvious.

It's clear that the box remains the property of the charity. It's no different to if you died with your employer's car in your driveway or your employer's laptop in your study. As for the contents, when someone puts money in the box, their intention is clearly to make a gift of that money to the charity. Not to the person who happens to be keeping the charity's box in their house, to do with as they please. The money in the box is therefore also the charity's money.

The special status in law you're after is the fact that the box belongs to the charity. If the deceased just bought a tin in a charity gift shop and used it as a piggy bank then I agree, it's more ambiguous. But this kind of box seems more commonly entrusted by a charity to their fundraisers for the purpose of collecting money from other people. Giving it to a fundraiser to take home with them doesn't make it the fundraiser's property, any more than a company car becomes the employee's when they park it on their driveway.

If there's £150 in it it seems rather unlikely that it all came from the deceased and it seems far more likely that it was used for the purpose of collecting donations from others.

unforeseen

Was it sealed or was it a flimsy cardboard one like the churches used to give out for the Children's Society? Came flat and you put them together yourself
Such as http://shop.childrenssociety.org.uk/childprotection-assets/products/products-l/collectionboxsquare-lg.jpg

securityguy

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

Assuming the box is a sealed charity one with the usual charity logo and lettering then it clearly belongs to the charity

Agree.

along with any contents

Hmm. Any contents? OK, so if I put a gram of cocaine in the charity box and leave it on my shelf, I'm in the clear when old bill comes a calling, but the charity is on the hook for possession of a Class A substance? I don't think that's true for a second.

It IS different from a run of the mill money box because it is designed for the specific purpose of collecting money for the charity.

Designed, sure. In law...?

The moment anyone puts money in this belongs to the charity. End of story really....If anyone other than the charity subsequently takes money from the box that is theft, plain and simple.

You'll have some law to hand for something so plain and simple, I take it?

I repeat: morally I absolutely agree with you. I don't think it's at all obvious that the provenance of the contents of a cashbox in the possession of a deceased is irrelevant.

Here's another example: I put all my money in a charity box and the declare myself bankrupt. Do my creditors _really_ have no claim, at all, on the contents?