Recommended Pronorm kitchen retailer?

dw14

ryder72 wrote: »

Comparing German kitchens to Howdens indicates a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject.
In terms of differences, its been well discussed on teh forum so look up past posts.

Eh, yes, difficult not to when I actually have no knowledge...that's why I'm posting to a forum where others may or may not be able to help...

Put it this way. I work in IT. If a company comes to me looking to upgrade their system with a new Server and laptops etc they normally have "a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject." That's why they come to me.
I would help and advise and give them options. Dell, HP Fujitsu....
Dell are easier to deal with, nice machines and great warranty.
HP can be better made and specced but dearer....see where I'm going with this?
I would then narrow the choice down and give as much techie speak as I think the client wants or can deal with and quote.
Invariably the next stage is "How much! For a few computers!!"
Again see where I'm going with this.
"A complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject."
There's my time to source, setup, train, remediate if things go awry, and decide whether I can charge a markup on the hardware or just pass on my Howdens...sorry I mean Dell discount
The design and fitting stages are where the skill comes in and why some consultants charge more than others. The computers are just plastic and metal boxes.
Phew!

Therefore, I know how it all works, I can smell BS and know business models and hidden discounts etc etc etc.
Swap IT for kitchens.
Thing is, you can go to PC World and see a computer and equate that to my quote. You can touch it, look at the specs then do a like for like comparison. Doesn't really work as the ones I spec are proper business machines built to last not a £200 job for little johnny.

Can I do that with kitchens. Sort of, but it's not £2000 for a massive Server and laptops, my time etc and they know what their getting.
It's smoke and mirrors with no straight answers or prices like for like hence why I'm asking here!!
It's going to be £5k+ of our very hard earned that will be used every day so I'd have hoped for a that brand is better than that brand because, Otherwise, why wouldn't everyone be advised to buy Cooke and Lewis at B&Q and change the doors. There must be technical differences.

ryder72 wrote: »

In terms of differences, its been well discussed on teh forum so look up past posts.

Oh, believe me I've spent a week solid in front of the computer looking for answers about Pronorm.
On this forum they have been mentioned but very much in passing, most are posts from years ago and hardly any info.

Thanks for your help though.

Furts

dw14 wrote: »

It's going to be £5k+ of our very hard earned that will be used every day so I'd have hoped for a that brand is better than that brand because, Otherwise, why wouldn't everyone be advised to buy Cooke and Lewis at B&Q and change the doors. There must be technical differences.

You are asking for advice so I will chip in with a fundamental, or lateral thinking, approach.


It is nonsence to automatically assume that a German kitchen is better than a UK made one. You know this if you are honest with yourself by considering the 16mm chipboard.


My kitchen is UK made and supplied through a builders merchant. It comes with 18mm chipboard everywhere - tops, back panels, and shelfs. It comes with Blum soft close 180 hinges, and Blum draw boxes. All joints are fully screwed - no cams and dowel details, Every edge, including those you cannot see, is fully lipped. All round it is an acceptable piece of work at a fraction the cost of any German kitchen. In terms of quality it is far superior to many German kitchens. Why? Because every piece on the front faces, be it pelmet, cornice, drawers or doors is solid oak.


My kitchen is light coloured, and shaker style. So again it is superior to countless German kitchens because it is timeless and will not date to a great degree.


It is entirely your choice on what you purchase. But if you are seeking value, quality, and all round future proofing it is pointless being fixated on German kitchens, and it is even more pointless being fixated on a particular brand.


German kitchens have their place, but in the average UK home they are akin to burning money.

dw14

Furts wrote: »

It is nonsence to automatically assume that a German kitchen is better than a UK made one. You know this if you are honest with yourself by considering the 16mm chipboard.

It is entirely your choice on what you purchase. But if you are seeking value, quality, and all round future proofing it is pointless being fixated on German kitchens, and it is even more pointless being fixated on a particular brand.
.

Thanks Furts.
Not fixated, just that the kitchen place within walking distance sells the Pronorm and UK Sheraton kitchens. That's the only reason we started considering German kitchens.
Never heard of any of the German makes before I saw Pronorm in the showroom then went online.
Just wanted opinions like yours. Technical differences and other answers. as I am clueless with this buying decision unlike normal where I can get it down to the n'th degree on price and technical differences.

Other place in town sells Mackintosh kitchens. Price not much more than Howdens.
Just need to see what the Pronorm quote comes in at. Not expecting it to be cheaper.

Looked at Diy-Kitchens.
Probably prefer going to a local independent as it's, well, local so can walk along the road and shout at them if something goes wrong.

Bottom line, we don't want to pay over the odds for a kitchen that has exactly the same specs and finishes as another like for like. That's all

ryder72

@dw - you got me wrong mate. My post wasnt directed to you.

This is how you could look at it.

1. Chipboard is made in several grades so to automatically assume that 18mm is better than 16mm is foolish. Carcase density comes into it so does the layering of chipboard.

2. Most kitchen hardware is Blum but they make about 4-5 different grades of drawer boxes. The Blum used on Howdens is the base spec Blum drawer boxes. So check what you are getting. If its not Blum it will probably be Grass or Hettich. Hettich is about the same as Blum while Grass is better.

3. Check carcase sizing. English kitchen tend to work on 720mm carcase heights while most German systems have now upgraded to 780 or similar sizes carcase. You get better ergomics and more storage.
Likewise check wall units. Usually deeper on German systems

4. Carcase edging on most of the trade places in UK tends to be cheap 0.5mm PVC. Some do a better 1.2mm PVC. You want something like 2mm ABS which is some of the most durable stuff out there.

5. Dowelled & glued carcases are the best option as they will be square. Avoid cam systems like the plague and IMO screwed isnt much better either.

6. German systems will undoubtedly give you vast flexibility in planning the kitchen.

7. You will also have more choice in colours, textures, finishes and nicer detailing too

8. If you want a true handleless system, no one does it better than the Germans.

9. Dont automatically assume that German kitchens are going to be expensive. A large number of German kitchens are available to buy at cheaper prices that British made ones. And there isnt much British about a British kitchen anyways. A lot of carcase material comes from Baltic states, hardware is German/Austrian, doors - even oak ones are Italian or French made, manufacturing machinery almost exclusively German. So if you final place of assembly is Britain, thats only a nominally British product. All products have been hit by the Brexit effect.

9. Finally - modern kitchen are as much about design and lifestyle statements as they are about durability. Not everyone wants a utilitarian and functional kitchen. Some people also care about what it looks like and how it fits in with the overall decor of their house. Oak is not the be all and end all of materials. So if you prefer a purple gloss kitchen with orange butterflies on it then go for it.

If you have more specific questions PM me. Happy to help

Furts

dw14 wrote: »

Thanks Furts.

Bottom line, we don't want to pay over the odds for a kitchen that has exactly the same specs and finishes as another like for like. That's all

There is very little to differentiate kitchens. They are all made of recycling waste, which gets called chipboard. This may sound harsh, but the old fence posts and pallets at your local recycling centre end up in this way. Which means kitchens are an enormously over inflated price. This in turn is why independents can exist. They can make good profits by matching/undercutting/exceeding - as they wish - list prices at the likes of Howdens. Then added in is smoke and mirrors and all sorts of add ons from water boilers, to led lights in plinths, to... you get the idea. But also poor quality items where consumers do not check from sinks, to wastes, to taps, to extract vents and so on.


An honest independent kitchen retailer would say "look at my recycled fence panels". But 99.9% would refer to something like "the three layer furniture grade chipboard" previously mentioned. Of course this is 100% cow dung, but it also is aimed to take the focus off a key point. It deliberately takes the focus off the inferior thickness of the chipboard.


There is no substitute for touching and appraising the products out there. I have given you my specification - it is up to you where you wish to set yours.

ryder72

Furts - dont know where you got your kitchen from or when you visited a chipboard factory. The days when it was made from swept floors is long gone. Time you catch up with the current EU regulations on chipboard manufacture and perhaps visit a reputable manufacturer.

Last time I visited there wasnt a fence or for that matter any recycled timber in sight. Apart from virgin chipped softwood, it was a variety of aggregated timber, all virgin used to make chipboard.

Perhaps you exhibit more professionalism and make meaningful contributions to this forum rather than just stir it up, splash muck on or make unsubstantiated allegations against fellow contributors.

Furts

ryder72 wrote: »

Furts - dont know where you got your kitchen from or when you visited a chipboard factory. The days when it was made from swept floors is long gone. Time you catch up with the current EU regulations on chipboard manufacture and perhaps visit a reputable manufacturer.

Last time I visited there wasnt a fence or for that matter any recycled timber in sight. Apart from virgin chipped softwood, it was a variety of aggregated timber, all virgin used to make chipboard.

Perhaps you exhibit more professionalism and make meaningful contributions to this forum rather than just stir it up, splash muck on or make unsubstantiated allegations against fellow contributors.

I know where the lorries drive to from my local recycling centre and I know what plant they end up at.


But leaving aside our difference on this matter, chipboard is just a mass product, low cost raw material. If a kitchen company had any concept of up market and quality then chipboard would not be used. To strike an analogy, there are tv adverts saying "no veneer in here". This is because not all consumers are happy with chipboard being the material used for furniture. With kitchens consumers have little choice. So why are the kitchen companies not being honest about this, up front about this, and offering a better product?

Private_Church

ryder72 wrote: »

@dw - you got me wrong mate. My post wasnt directed to you.

This is how you could look at it.

1. Chipboard is made in several grades so to automatically assume that 18mm is better than 16mm is foolish. Carcase density comes into it so does the layering of chipboard.

Sorry to burst your bubble but if density was the main factor they wouldn't use Chipboard at all and would use Melamine faced MDF which is slightly more expensive but has the advantage of not having voids in which chipboard has and voids are a weakness. Why don't they use MFMDF instead of chipboard if quality was a factor?.

As posted previously I've seen the cheapest Howdens kitchen carcases work perfectly well for 25yrs + so the quality of chipboard back then was of a lower grade than now but stood the test of time so a better quality "furniture grade" Chipbaord means nothing in reality and is marketing rubbish. People replace kitchens because tastes change and nothing to do with durability as such.

2. Most kitchen hardware is Blum but they make about 4-5 different grades of drawer boxes. The Blum used on Howdens is the base spec Blum drawer boxes. So check what you are getting. If its not Blum it will probably be Grass or Hettich. Hettich is about the same as Blum while Grass is better.

I agree...............So why do most German Companies use Blum when Grass are better?.

3. Check carcase sizing. English kitchen tend to work on 720mm carcase heights while most German systems have now upgraded to 780 or similar sizes carcase. You get better ergomics and more storage.
Likewise check wall units. Usually deeper on German systems

So having negligible more space is a reason to pay a premium for a kitchen? Whilst I would agree it would be an advantage on a very,very small kitchen for the average kitchen its small beer.

4. Carcase edging on most of the trade places in UK tends to be cheap 0.5mm PVC. Some do a better 1.2mm PVC. You want something like 2mm ABS which is some of the most durable stuff out there.

DIY Kitchens (IIRC) Use a 2.5mm ABS wereas Pronorm use 1.3mm .

5. Dowelled & glued carcases are the best option as they will be square. Avoid cam systems like the plague and IMO screwed isnt much better either.

Agree..............Personally I glue,screw and Domino (very wide dowels) units together.

6. German systems will undoubtedly give you vast flexibility in planning the kitchen.

German kitchens as you say are more flexible with unit sizes.

7. You will also have more choice in colours, textures, finishes and nicer detailing too

Not sure they do more colours but textures is also a plus for German kitchens.

9. Dont automatically assume that German kitchens are going to be expensive. A large number of German kitchens are available to buy at cheaper prices that British made ones. And there isnt much British about a British kitchen anyways. A lot of carcase material comes from Baltic states, hardware is German/Austrian, doors - even oak ones are Italian or French made, manufacturing machinery almost exclusively German. So if you final place of assembly is Britain, thats only a nominally British product. All products have been hit by the Brexit effect.

Without being pedantic where do you think German kitchen manufacturers source their carcase materials from?.IIRC They source them from Austria which last time I looked is not Germany. BLUM is Austrian, GRASS are Austrian ............My point is even Italian kitchens source their materials from outside of Italy. Its the way of the world now ,everyone sources components from all over the world.

I would also say I have limited knowledge of the German market but I'm yet to see a German kitchen cheaper than a standard UK one such as DIY Kitchens, especially after the "designer" has added their fees. Out of interest where can I buy a German kitchen off the peg?.

9. Finally - modern kitchen are as much about design and lifestyle statements as they are about durability. Not everyone wants a utilitarian and functional kitchen. Some people also care about what it looks like and how it fits in with the overall decor of their house. Oak is not the be all and end all of materials. So if you prefer a purple gloss kitchen with orange butterflies on it then go for it.

I said in my previous post that aesthetics come into play with a kitchen and if someone wants a German kitchen then go for it but lets stop this rubbish about German kitchens being better quality when they clearly aren't and anyone claiming otherwise should back up that claim and as yet no one can. A handbuilt kitchen may well be of superior quality but then people will be paying a premium. Its quite correct to compare a German made kitchen with a Howdens one when certain people with a vested interest in promoting German kitchens make claims about durability and quality when those of us who actually know about the process of making kitchens know there is little if any difference between the two.
I agree to an extent but the majority of people don't need a "salesmen" selling a lifestyle when all they actually want is a nice ,fuctional,durable kitchen. The top end of the market will always have a place for "kitchen consultants" but the vast majority of people don't need them.

"We aren't just selling you a BMW we are selling you a lifestyle".. I wish I had a £ for every time I've seen people taken in by marketing faff.

Just my penneth worth given by someone who actually makes kitchens along with General Joinery and has done so for nearly 35yrs. Its a public forum so people are free to ignore my posts but I'm neither naive nor a salesman.I guess where we differ is I know what goes into making them and the cost of making a kitchen and you know how to sell/plan them so we come from it at different angles.

stueyhants

Thank you Furts and Private Church. It's great to get a good honest appraisal of the market away from the sales pitch you often get in posh showrooms. I'm going to be supporting British manufacturers (diy kitchens) when I choose my kitchen later this year. People do forget that Britain has fantastic design and manufacturing capability (just look at aerospace, automotive and materials engineering). The assumption that German is always best needs to be challenged.

ryder72

Sorry to burst your bubble but if density was the main factor they wouldn't use Chipboard at all and would use Melamine faced MDF which is slightly more expensive but has the advantage of not having voids in which chipboard has and voids are a weakness. Why don't they use MFMDF instead of chipboard if quality was a factor?.

Chipboard had greater strength compared to MDF. MDF has benefits where a good finish is required such as a lacquered door but when melamine or laminated faced the lesser finish of chipboard is fine. moisture resistant chipboard is used by some manufacturers.

I agree...............So why do most German Companies use Blum when Grass are better?.

Cost.

So having negligible more space is a reason to pay a premium for a kitchen? Whilst I would agree it would be an advantage on a very,very small kitchen for the average kitchen its small beer.

So you are saying 10% is negligible? Not where I come from. I would change lots of things in my life for 10% increment.

DIY Kitchens (IIRC) Use a 2.5mm ABS wereas Pronorm use 1.3mm .

DIY - 2mm ABS
And credit to them for it. I cant think of any British manufacturer that ones ABS. Its either PVC or PU edging. I dont know what Pronorm use but the one I use do 2mm ABS as well.

Not sure they do more colours but textures is also a plus for German kitchens.

Again, not very familiar with Pronorm but the one I work with will do any RAL, NCS or Sikkens colour on structured, silk matt, high gloss, matt or polished glass, solid wood or lacquered veneer doors for a one off £525 per colour irrespective of the kitchen side.

Without being pedantic where do you think German kitchen manufacturers source their carcase materials from?.IIRC They source them from Austria which last time I looked is not Germany. BLUM is Austrian, GRASS are Austrian ............My point is even Italian kitchens source their materials from outside of Italy. Its the way of the world now ,everyone sources components from all over the world.

When I meant carcase material, I meant chipboard. Bulk of it originates in the Baltics. Blum is Austrian. Grass is made in Austria but is owned by HETAL, which is German and also owns Hettich which is made in Germany.

My point is, unless you go to top end hand made British kitchens where a bulk of the product is British made, a big chunk of what are 'British kitchens' are British assembled.

I would also say I have limited knowledge of the German market but I'm yet to see a German kitchen cheaper than a standard UK one such as DIY Kitchens, especially after the "designer" has added their fees. Out of interest where can I buy a German kitchen off the peg?.

I agree and the reasons are easy to understand. In Germany, the systems are geared around manufacturing to order so you go to a trade type outlet, plan a kitchen and its manufactured and supplied in 2 weeks. In Britain, the basic stuff (Howdens, Benchmarx etc) is stocked albeit in very limited options locally and available for same or next day collection. A massive number of kitchens in Britain are bought through the trade on immediate or near immediate turnaround so the Germans cannot ever get a toehold in the trade outlets.

This results in 2 outcomes.

If you supply only 30 types of units all in white and 10 types of door fronts it isnt difficult to carry stock. If you do 300 types of units in 15 carcase colours, in 50 - 200 types of fronts, its impossible to stock.

With more design options available, every kitchen has to be custom manufactured and that has a cost overhead.

I have said this before and I can reaffirm - having worked with British manufacturers previously, the level of flexibility & quality of service from a mass produced kitchen manufacturer doesnt exist and if anyone can show it to me, it will be seriously analysed.