Is post-school education good value for money?

Magenta63

I think the apprenticeship system is flawed, and wide open to abuse. My son started what should have been a 1 year, level 3 apprenticeship. This has now turned into a 2 year, level 2 (which should not exist). As his employers already paid the college, without telling him, they say he is now locked in to it. The tutor cancels regularly, and he is bored rigid, doing module she passed years ago. It would have been far better to have been a paid employee, with fixed term day release to complete the qualification. He lives on very little and this will now continue, unless he leaves, which would be a shame, as he enjoys the actual job.

The employer gets cheap labour and the college can do whatever they like, with no consideration for the apprentice.

MalcBridge

The move to very high 'University' attendance and resulting proliferation of virtually useless degrees is an expensive, if well-intentioned, mistake. I belong to the baby-boomer generation so attended Grammar School and University (at a time when University attendance wasn't much over 10%) at public expense and am now retired. However, during the second half of my career, the years when the effects of University expansion really came through, I was responsible, as an R&D Manager in a medium-sized company, for the recruitment of technical staff and saw the results very clearly, the principal one being that we had to employ candidates with poor degrees to do the Technician jobs that would have been filled by school-leavers with 'O' or 'A' levels (who would then have acquired further qualifications by day release) when I first entered employment. Our graduates were unhappy because they hadn't got jobs at the level (or salary) they had been led to expect and we were unhappy because we still had to train them up as such skills as they had were academic rather than practical, meanwhile paying them more than we would an equally useful school leaver.

Don't get the impression from this that I am opposed to universal education. I firmly believe that everyone (child or adult) should have the opportunity to advance their knowledge and skills to the limits of their ability but I don't believe that the current system is fit for purpose. The basic concept of University education is the sharing of knowledge between researchers (lecturers) and students and subjects studied should therefore be limited to ones where research was possible and ongoing. Many of the subjects now taught to so-called degree level do not lend themselves to research, meaning that lecturers are either under-employed or part-time, neither a recipe for efficiency. I should like to see more account taken of the (admittedly blurred) boundary between academic and vocational training with the former remaining within the University sphere and the latter being returned to Technical colleges and equivalents where staff would be full-time teachers/lecturers. This should, if properly implemented, lead to considerable cost savings allied to the production of more useful (= employable) students.

Karen_Bassett

University changed my life and prospects 30 years ago when I did a Science degree and it was all paid for by the state.If I had not received full funding I would not have gone. As a teacher I hope I have improved the future of 1000's of children and benefitted the country because of this. I received 20 hours a week contact time for about 35 weeks. If charged £9250 a year to do this degree now, it equates to about £13 an hour!!!! In lectures there were 70-100 people. In seminars there were rarely less than 8. Even in practical sessions there was at least a 1:15 ratio. So Universities are collecting 70 x £13 an hour for lectures (£910) and a measly £104 for a seminar. How do they cope????
Compare this with other degrees where there may be only 6 hours per week contact time - how can this be worth over £9250 a year? At least in Science the experiments cost a bit!
But the state cannot afford to send almost 50% of each cohort to Uni. and why should someone's desire to study a particular subject cost the nation for them to do so.
The answer is having different costs for different subjects according to the needs of the nation. Medicine, Science, Engineering, Education etc. free (or even pay people to train - Physics teachers get over 20K to train - but there are too few Physicists to start because there is too little incentive because it's a challenging subject so fewer graduates.) Subsidise some degrees, charge for other degrees.
Lots of art students will be up in arms about this - I understand, I wanted to do arts, but I wanted to a secure well paid career so Art and other areas had to become hobbies. We do need MOST subject areas, but in moderation. We have too many young people studying A levels in Media, Drama, Photography etc. My son's school has 4 doing A level Physics and 34 doing photography. The balance is wrong and we can make Degree funding a tool in encouraging pupils to take the less easy, but far more socially useful route.
My son will go to Uni if he desires, but I think it is a rip off. I'd prefer him to do an apprenticeship. But he knows I will only pay if I consider (since I will pay because I can and because I will not burden him with debt, or the notion that debt is acceptable) the degree to be worthwhile. 3 years studying the Tudors, along with 1000's of others across the country will limit his potential employability.

JBR*

I have studied both education and radiography at college/university. Both of these courses led directly to employment. I believe that they, along with others like them, are well worth going to university to study for that reason.

Unfortunately, since a certain ex-PM insisted that 50% of school leavers should go to university, we now have many, many more university students compared to what we once had and, sadly, a very large proportion of those leave university with Mickey Mouse degrees or degrees which do not provide guaranteed employment.

It is my belief that the number of university students should be reduced accordingly with a view to providing suitable applicants for those professions or other jobs that are available to those with the appropriate qualifications.

In their place, we should have many more apprenticeships or similar 'learning on the job' places where work can be guaranteed at the end of successful completion.

At the same time, people should be made aware that artisans are in no way inferior to academics. Young people should be encouraged to join the path to which they are most suited in both ability and their personal interest.

happyinflorida

My son ended up in enormous debt because the conservatives and lib dems brought in tuition fees - what a disgraceful move when all of them got a free higher education when their families could all have afforded to pay but didn't have to.

The university he went to - Canterbury - was a disgrace. His expensive accommodation was a nightmare because they allowed a 2nd year student to stay in 1st year on site accommodation - he and his friends were extremely noisy at all hours, preventing my son and many others from sleeping properly and broke the door down twice - nothing was done about that either. He and his friends stole food out of the fridge so in the end, my son and his fellow students in that area, 9 of them, could only eat tinned food for the year. - what sort of uni allows this? The 2nd year student should have been thrown out but they did absolutely nothing about him.

The IT course was useless, he learnt nothing new in the 1st year, but the 2nd he couldn't understand much of it and got no help - just told to go to the library and teach himself. I offered to pay for extra tuition but he was told none was available! What sort of uni is like this? A very bad one.

£thousands wasted and he ended up in debt for nothing.

He was unemployed for years - made to work for no money by the DWP, never offered a job by any of these places he worked for free because they want free labour and he's now in a dead end job, earning peanuts.

Thanks conservative party and lib dems - you will never get my vote, ever again.

Now my other son is on an apprenticeship - what a complete waste of time and money that has been.

He was told on day he started "there will be no job at the end of this" - he's been taught absolutely nothing except, mainly in the 1st year, how to move furniture and boxes. He has been taught nothing of value.

He went to college one day a week and learnt nothing he hadn't already learnt previously in his previous IT courses.

The situation in this country is dire thanks to the disgusting way the conservatives have dealt with everything.

The young have no hope IMO because the corrupt cons are in power.

We need a labour government to improve education, abolish tuition fees and give the NHS the money that is collected from our taxes, but not given to the NHS when it should be.

Stop allowing big businesses to use tax loop holes and avoid paying tax - this is my biggest bug bear in UK.

System

MSE_William wrote: »

The House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee is investigating the funding of post-school education, which includes universities, further education colleges and apprenticeships.

They really want to hear what you think about the current system, and how it could be improved.

1. Did your post-school education give you the skills you need?
2. Do you think it was good value for money?
3. What changes would improve the current system?

Please tell us your thoughts below and we’ll send them on to the Committee.

As my son won't post on this I feel obliged to do so. He is presently a mature student (33) at a university in Cornwall, returning this September for his final year.

BEFORE responding to the questions I'll just say that he was (as were I and his mother) badly let down by the local education schools from his starting his schooling - EVEN with me having meetings with the teachers in the early years as to why he was unable to learn that 2+2 made 4 or half of 4 was 2. His school years were not *pleasant* and contained an amount of bullying.. for obvious reason. Eventually, thanks to starting at uni as a 31 year old he was given a diagnoses of dyslexia and dyspraxia. Why was this *missed* while in full time education from 5 years old to 16?

He eventually plucked up the courage to do a 2 year BTEC at a local college when 27 which meant him leaving employment in a factory (working on a line) because the employer *would not* do job share or part-time working to allow him to *earn while learning*.

As a 27 year old he was not entitled (told he was not entitled) to ANY financial assistance from the state which meant we had to support him - which caused some financial issues for us... but family is family. From his 2 years on the BTEC he gained a triple distinction for his subject (Photography) and had good support from his tutors at the college which helped him with this achievement.

However, although he was able to gain a place at the University in Cornwall and be tested for the issues first mentioned above, he has had problems getting the time *with the tutors* to get the help, explanations and guidance he - AND OTHERS - should be able to get for the work they are set. Actual time with the *tutors* appears to be something around a maximum of 5 to 8 hours a week - if lucky... and for £9,250 per year plus the costs of maintenance loans during term times!!!

After these last two years he probably *owes* somewhere in the region of £30/£35,000 with his final year bringing it up to around £48,000 to £55,000. In no way will he repay that some of money... but it is still a great concern to him.

Q 1/ Is this course providing him the skills he needs? (A very open ended question... skills to do what?)

A/ Most probably not. Most *skills* he is learning are *self taught* or gained from other sources AWAY FROM the university. Are self taught skills helpful - - - if the work handed in is not in the correct area expected from the tutor? When the tutor tells the student they went in the wrong direction... that's a demoralising way of *teaching/tutoring*.

Q2/ Does he feel (at this time) he has had value for money?

A/ Definitely a great big fat NO. He was seriously considering dropping out and not returning for his final year because of his experiences based from the previous two years *tuition*. If he left now he wouldn't be able to say if this final year would have given him the *skills* he needs to achieve the goal of a well paid occupation...

Q3/ What changes would improve the current situation?

A/ Based on what he has informed me/us of;
More tutor time.
An ability to get the *one to one* time needed by students identified with a *slower learning curve*.
A better *constructive* feedback/guidance instead of *destructive* when work is returned from being marked.
LESS of the *self learning*, being sent away with a brief idea of what is required for the work of that week or month and more *hands on* with the students.
Students not being *left to their own devises to learn what they should be being *taught by the tutors*.
And finally... a DRASTIC reduction in the salaries paid to the heads of these universities because they are not worth that amount of money.

Universities have become a MONEY MAKING MACHINE in a number of areas and are no longer a TRUE place of LEARNING. Some 'Halls of Residence' are not fit for purpose and are akin to slums for 'less fortunate folk' instead of for out future working generations.

MartinWickham

A mature society should grant to its young people an education appropriate to needs as a gift, the same gift bestowed on previous generations. We all reap the benefits of an educated society.

The personal and national debts we are foisting on younger generations is morally corrupt and inexcusable.

ColinKistruck

I have been a teacher and manager in FE for the past 12 years, I would say yes and no.
On the yes side, if you consider that there has been a virtual pay freeze in FE for 10 years and little or no increase in funding from the government, the fact that FE still holds its own in delivering qualifications, preparing students for Higher Education, apprenticeships and work, there is definitely more for less


However, and I believe more importantly, in terms of suitability and quality, its a definite no.
Firstly the lack of investment in FE, the pay freeze etc, means that it is nearly impossible to recruit teachers, especially teachers with good industrial experience, ( why would you take a £10000+ pay cut to teach ), so FE is constantly being limited in the depth and range of provision due to limits of its teaching stock. Alongside this the near freeze on funding to FE per student over the same period has meant FE organisations have tailored delivery of course content to what is cost effective, limited range and choice of options etc. so that whilst the students get a qualification, the probability is that most of it is irrelevant to any career path chosen, of progress onto higher courses ( HNC / degree courses ).
Lastly apprenticeship provision is under going a seismic change with the new apprentice standards. Again the available funding per apprentice, makes delivery of the much extended program content uneconomical for FE institutions, without the employers paying more on top. This does not overly effect the large employers ( BA, Rolls Royce etc ), who have their own training schools, developed the standards around this and effectively keep the funding themselves. Also the new apprentice standards and have so much content, need more resources to deliver etc that FE at best will not be able to deliver more than one or two, and stand to loose a lot of students from local employers who's apprentices do not fit into the provision.
What to do to improve things, invest in attracting experienced teachers to FE ( eg with industrial experience ), stop treating education like football and judging it by league tables and how little can be spent on each student.

dalsude

I did an aerospace engineering degree because I was pushed into it by careers advisors trying to get more 'girls' into engineering. I also thought it would give me a well paid career. Unfortunately a combination of the British aerospace industry pretty much collapsing before I graduated, my not really enjoying the course and not having any contacts in appropriate companies meant that the career I'd hoped for didn't materialise. A lack of useful advice after graduating meant I just drifted into a job that didn't suck too badly. I was lucky that when I did my degree the loans were only just being introduced. I still had to work evenings and weekends to help support myself. It took almost twenty years after graduating before I earned enough money to have to pay the loans back. I feel so sorry for students today, the chances of them ever earning much money after graduating (especially females) is so slim and they have to start paying it back straight away.
Having a degree (even in engineering) hasn't counted for much in terms of salary, as a female I've always been under paid and I've fallen behind my male counterparts by about £10k per year. Yes, I have pointed it out to employers but without concrete proof and a tribuneral there's not a lot I can do other than change jobs to get a pay rise. I would have earnt far more over the course of my working life if I'd learnt a trade or driven a truck.
I've learnt far more useful skills from working than I ever did in my degree. My course didn't prepare us for the real world of work back then and I've had problems managing graduates, so nothing has improved. Degree courses don't teach business English (I shudder every time I get an email that starts with "Hey"), how to turn up on time, how to manage tasks or time, how to be proactive, how to ask questions, how to think creatively, interpersonal skills, common courtesy or team work. I don't expect graduates to know much at all about the job, but I do expect them to at least know the basics of how to work and how to learn.

I would only recommend doing a degree in the following circumstances:
1) it's something you're really interested in and would enjoy learning about and don't care whether it will give you a career,
2) you have lots of money already and don't need to earn a good salary to pay back the costs,
3) it's a vocational necessity.

onomatopoeia99

happyinflorida wrote: »

My son ended up in enormous debt because the conservatives and lib dems brought in tuition fees.

For absolute accuracy, university tuition fees were first brought in by the Blair government with Brown as chancellor in 1998, which they later trebled. That was a Labour government. The coalition trebled them again.

For a good computing degree (computer systems engineering or computer science) I'd be lookng at one at somewhere like the University of Bristol, or Warwick, Manchester, Bath, or Imperial in London (I've ignored Oxbridge as being too hard for many to get into). Never even heard of Canterbury (is that the old church college?) as a quality place for computer science or computer systems engineering, and it's my field. As for "Information Technology", it's more a BTEC / HNC / HND subject, as it's very applied / vocational rather than theoretical.