owing money for a training course and want to leave

spadoosh

catmanscoop2810 wrote: »

if it was such a fantastic organisation to work for I wouldn't of looked to move would I? Im in a situation where my workplace have made me unhappy EVEN after expressing my views earlier in the year about my role and responsibilities, with assurances, which didn't happen. Hence my frustrations and my next move.

There's many ways you could look at it and I agree as a business they have to value their ethos as you point out but I've also saved them the cost of ANOTHER year, and 2 subsequent years after that. Once that was finished, I would of been more than likely off anyway.

Alternatively, I can stay and it being a torrid next couple years for us all.

Just explaining my views, not looking for a dressing down hence why I'm asking the original poster if he had done any research on any student loans/grants that could help pay back?

You are free to leave after working your notice, you should expect to pay any contractual commitments.

Speak to them about a payment plan although itll probably help if you accept youre on the back foot. Start putting savings aside to try and cover as much as possible.

You could try and be clever and time your notice so that the last pay has little if anything in so they are unable to take the wage so to speak but im sure they inevitably will end up chasing you through the courts (providing the training was a significant expense, which i imagine it was hence why youre unable to pay). Going to make references etc more awkward.

Ill be amazed if theres any after the event type of financing for this, short of conventional loans and overdrafts (your own liabilities).

fiisch

I've been in this situation x3, and never paid back a penny (insurance and IT qualifications). From talking to other people, the general consensus is this is meant to act as a deterrent rather than a means of screwing you out of your final pay check.


Also, bare in mind your new employer can be asked to pay the cost of any training fees as part of the salary negotiations - after all, they are benefitting from the outcome!


I have successfully agreed with future employers to pay aforementioned study fees twice in the past, but on each occasion I have not been charged - (may be I am just very lucky?!). Amounts have not been insignificant - in one instance >£6000.


However, in terms of your specific questions:


- Yes, typically your employer will deduct monies owed from the final paycheque. If there is any money over and above the amount collected still owing, they will send you a bill.
- If you do not pay, you normally have to pay any outstanding balance in full, and you could be taken to court.


Some employers might agree a payment plan, but there is no reason they have to, and personally, when I leave an employer, I like to sever all ties as quickly as possible (not that I've ever left on bad terms)!

catmanscoop2810

fiisch wrote: »

I've been in this situation x3, and never paid back a penny (insurance and IT qualifications). From talking to other people, the general consensus is this is meant to act as a deterrent rather than a means of screwing you out of your final pay check.


Also, bare in mind your new employer can be asked to pay the cost of any training fees as part of the salary negotiations - after all, they are benefitting from the outcome!


I have successfully agreed with future employers to pay aforementioned study fees twice in the past, but on each occasion I have not been charged - (may be I am just very lucky?!). Amounts have not been insignificant - in one instance >£6000.


However, in terms of your specific questions:


- Yes, typically your employer will deduct monies owed from the final paycheque. If there is any money over and above the amount collected still owing, they will send you a bill.
- If you do not pay, you normally have to pay any outstanding balance in full, and you could be taken to court.


Some employers might agree a payment plan, but there is no reason they have to, and personally, when I leave an employer, I like to sever all ties as quickly as possible (not that I've ever left on bad terms)!

Hi fiisch,

thanks for that, you do sound incredibly lucky.

Worry for me is, this is a big opportunity at a larger company and would much better help my overall career goals better then sticking around where I am currently, along with giving me the responsibility I crave to fulfill my development.

It would be an option to go back to them, through the recruitment consultant to ask if they can reimburse my current company but with me not being the finished article and them being a company that could get a number of applicants/interest in the role I would be taking I'm worried I could affect my chances and leave myself with no job at all !! It's an awkward one, not nice to be involved in at all.

Thanks

steampowered

catmanscoop2810 wrote: »

my agreement says I have to stay for a minimum of 5 years

The length of time means you are in a different situation to the Op.

If you signed a contract which says you must repay the cost if you leave within 5 years, there is a very good chance that the entire clause is void. The legal arguments are that it is (1) a penalty clause and (2) an unlawful restraint of trade.

The courts have upheld clauses requiring repayment if you leave within 12 or 18 months. This will be the case for the Op.

But the courts have gone in different directions in a couple of cases where the period was 2 or 3 years.

A 5 year clause is probably unenforceable, but you need to provide more details about what the clause actually says you want a firmer opinion.

catmanscoop2810

steampowered wrote: »

The length of time means you are in a different situation to the Op.

If you signed a contract which says you must repay the cost if you leave within 5 years, there is a very good chance that the entire clause is void. The legal arguments are that it is (1) a penalty clause and (2) an unlawful restraint of trade.

The courts have upheld clauses requiring repayment if you leave within 12 or 18 months. This will be the case for the Op.

But the courts have gone in different directions in a couple of cases where the period was 2 or 3 years.

A 5 year clause is probably unenforceable, but you need to provide more details about what the clause actually says you want a firmer opinion.

thank you:

I may have confused, the agreement states they require me to stay for 2 years after the end of the course, and the amount is reduced 1/24th for each complete calendar month I am there after. I have a year left of the course so effectively wouldn't be out of this agreement until summer 2020.

With me being here since summer 2015, thats what I meant by my 5 years.

With the opportunity I've been offered and how unhappy I am working here, staying till 2020 just isn't plausible. I also have aspirations to complete a higher degree on the back of the completion of the course, which would start Autumn 2018 which would mean probably another agreement and tied down even further with these if I required them to fund it.

Apologies to the OP, feel like I've taken over your thread!!

Undervalued

steampowered wrote: »

The length of time means you are in a different situation to the Op.

If you signed a contract which says you must repay the cost if you leave within 5 years, there is a very good chance that the entire clause is void. The legal arguments are that it is (1) a penalty clause and (2) an unlawful restraint of trade.

The courts have upheld clauses requiring repayment if you leave within 12 or 18 months. This will be the case for the Op.

But the courts have gone in different directions in a couple of cases where the period was 2 or 3 years.

A 5 year clause is probably unenforceable, but you need to provide more details about what the clause actually says you want a firmer opinion.

Indeed but the practical problem may still remain. If such an agreement has been signed then there is every likelihood that the employer will deduct the amount owing from the final salary. That leaves the employee having to take action against their former employer in an attempt to get the clause ruled unenforceable.

Obviously it can and has been done successfully but, even assuming they eventually win, they will have been without the money for many months. If successful they should be able to recover their costs but they will have had to have found money initially to fund the action

They will also have soured the relationship which may lead to unfavourable references or no reference at all.

Even if it is likely to be unenforceable it is never really a good idea to enter into a contract relying on it being invalid!

bouicca21

TBH a lot depends on the company. Some years ago I had a 'stay 2 years' agreement with mine and left after 18 months. They wrote it off. I doubt they would have been so accommodating if I'd only stayed a month or so.

steampowered

catmanscoop2810 wrote: »

I may have confused, the agreement states they require me to stay for 2 years after the end of the course, and the amount is reduced 1/24th for each complete calendar month I am there after. I have a year left of the course so effectively wouldn't be out of this agreement until summer 2020.

Reimbursement over 2 years after finishing training with the amount reducing over time is at the upper end of what the courts let employers get away with, but is still legally enforceable I'm afraid.

As this is a 3 year course, does the clause say anything about breaking down the cost between different years? And is the course broken down into separate components you can study for separately?

For example if the employer paid the cost of the 1st year 2 years ago, and has benefited from the training you got in that 1st year, that is effectively a 4 year lock-in for that part of the course, so it might be possible to challenge those earlier costs.

With the opportunity I've been offered and how unhappy I am working here, staying till 2020 just isn't plausible.

The only advice I can give you is to get the information you need to make an informed decision. You can ask HR to tell you how much the course cost, so you at least have an idea how much you are looking at. This at least tells you the "worst case" exposure if your employer demands repayment in full - they might not but it is common I'm afraid.

This will flag to the employer that you are thinking of leaving, but as you are unhappy anyway that might not be a bad thing.

Indeed but the practical problem may still remain.

Yes, I completely agree. It is much easier and cheaper than it used to be to challenge employers who deduct from wages - especially now that Employment Tribunal fees have been abolished - but could still take several months to resolve and would damage the prospect of getting a good reference.

ReadingTim

bouicca21 wrote: »

TBH a lot depends on the company. Some years ago I had a 'stay 2 years' agreement with mine and left after 18 months. They wrote it off. I doubt they would have been so accommodating if I'd only stayed a month or so.

Depends - often it's written off not as a gesture of goodwill or anything like that, it's because they don't want the hassle and expense of going through the courts to reclaim it. That said, the earlier you leave, the more likely it might be that they'll want to pursue you, or make an example of you - a point of principle and all that.

Ultimately the OP needs to decide if they want to gamble that their current employer won't pursue them for the balance, within 28 days, as per the agreement. If there's really absolutely no way they can find the money, then they might have to decide it's not a risk worth taking.

InNeed_3

steampowered wrote: »

Yes they can do this if you signed a piece of paper allowing them to.


Yes, the reality is they are likely to deduct it from your final salary.


Yes, or just deduct it from your final salary and let you take them to court.

Better to stay for the 12 months if you can. 12 months isn't that long.

Thanks for response.


I've checked the contract and it doesn't say anything about deducting it from my salary. I actually wrote the contract as that's my job! lol It just says within 28 days or longer if agreed to pay it back.


Its not a huge amount so wondered if it was worth them taking me to court, seeing as I'm happy to pay it back, just not achievable within 28 days.