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Advantage Finance - Advice Required
Hi all,
I've had all sorts of problems with Advantage Finance, and I'm looking for some feedback. I would like to mention in advance that I believe some of this stuff to sound implausible, but there is written proof of everything I say here.
So, a quick summary of this would be:
1. I bought a car from a dealer, using Advantage for finance for £3000 of the £4000 price.
2. I made several payments on time by DD.
3. I notified them that there were several issues with the car;
a - the parking sensors have never been reliable, and this nearly caused a couple of incidents before I realized they were intermittent
b - the brakes make a clunking noise and squeal when applied - this wasn't apparent on the test-drive, but has been getting worse
c - the brakes also caused one of the tyres to be damaged, and this had to be replaced
d - the power steering pump clunks sporadically
4. I got reports on all of these faults from a local Kwik-Fit, and Advantage paid to have the brakes repaired. This did not resolve the issue, however, as the issue persists, and this has also been the subject of another report by the same Kwik-Fit. Advantage refused to pay for the replacement tyre.
5. Some arguments were had with Advantage staff about the car, which I notified them that I wanted to return as faulty, as I was within the 6 months, and I was unhappy with the number of faults. They refused, and they spoke to me pretty badly. I reminded them that they are a finance company, and that I am their customer - they shouldn't be treating everybody who owes them money as if they're some sort of criminal: we're their customer and their sole revenue stream.
6. I sent another report to Advantage from the garage detailing faults 5 months in, and they didn't respond. I chased again, they still didn't respond. They have since admitted that this is an accurate description of what happened: I tried to get in contact, they didn't come back to me. This will be important later.
7. I rearranged all my finances, and now have all my direct debits paid out of one specific bank account. I provided these details to Advantage, in writing, 3 weeks before the next payment was due. They wrote back saying that they were declining to accept these details, as they weren't provided in a way of which they approved. I said I thought providing them in writing was sufficient, and that I wanted all future payments to be taken from the account I had specified. At this point in time I was not in arrears, and they had loads of time to arrange the direct debit. I genuinely felt like they were treating me the way they were because of the previous arguments over my attempt to return the car as faulty; it always felt like I was being drawn into an argument.
8. I received a call from Advantage, and I was told again that they were not accepting the direct debit information. I said, and I quote: "I sent the same details to providers of my car insurance, home insurance, car tax, and lots of other companies. I gave them to you in loads of time, and if it's good enough for the DVLA then I don't see why it's not good enough for you. And now you're deliberately inconveniencing me and trying to justify it by quoting some !!!!!!!! technicality." The agent tried to tell me off for swearing at her, I replied that in the context I used the word I wasn't swearing AT her, and she hung up. I then received a letter from Advantage which demanded a written apology for my conduct and threatened me with police action for the virulent verbal abuse I had subjected their member of staff to. I ignored this threat, of course.
9. Advantage set up a direct debit with my bank, using the details I had provided to them. This was confirmed by my bank, in writing: they set up the direct debit, they were fully capable of taking payment on the agreed payment date. Advantage then sent me confirmation in writing that they had set up the direct debit, and would be taking payment.
10. I then received a Termination notice in the mail, which said that since I had refused to make payment, they had cancelled the agreement and would be going to court in order to repossess my car. I called them and was told this was an administration error, that this letter should never have been sent out.
11. Advantage did not take payment on the agreed DD date. I then found a note on my doormat from some collection 'agent' saying he'd been to collect the car, and I wasn't home. This note demanded that I surrender the car.
12. I did not surrender the car, and I told Advantage I would be making a complaint through the Financial Ombudsman's Service.
13. I complained to the FOS, citing:
a - Advantage's refusal to deal with the fact that the car was faulty when sold
b - Advantage's refusal to allow me to reject a car as faulty, despite my provision of several garage reports within six months of purchase
c - Advantage refusing to take payment, despite setting up the Direct Debit
d - Advantage lodging a default notice against me, and putting this on my credit file despite the fact I had never once refused to pay them, despite the fact that they had full access to the payment, having a direct debit established and then not taking the money, and despite the fact that I can prove that there were funds in the account more than sufficient to cover the direct debit amount.
I provided all of this detail in writing to the FOS, and I was sure that my case was strong, because I had shown good faith, continued to make payments even when Advantage refused to uphold their obligations relating to the faults on the car and my rejection of said car, proved that I had not only provided the details with time to spare but that Advantage had used them to set up a direct debit and then not taken payment. How could I lose?
14. The FOS adjudicator somehow came to the conclusion that even though Advantage had complete access to the money and didn't take it, they were within their rights to cancel the agreement, and not only am I the one being "obstructive" (she somehow thought that even though it was Advantage refusing to respond to me, which they admitted, it was all my fault for "refusing to engage with Advantage", see point #6), but that I'm also liable for the entire balance of the agreement. Advantage have done nothing wrong, apparently, and I'm the one in the wrong, because I had an argument with one of Advantage's people on the phone a year ago. She also described this as a "favourable" outcome for me, which actually made me burst out laughing.
15. My bank manager told me he's never seen anything like this, and said that he's never seen before a case where the FOS have found in favor of a company who have outright refused to take payment, even after sending me confirmation that they would be taking payment. He was also the guy who provided me with the proof that the direct debit was set up with more than enough time to take payment on the agreed date.
16. I'm absolutely sure that a financial agreement includes two-way obligations, and that both parties need to be held to the same standards. One party agrees to provide money, and the other party agrees to pay interest on the loan. One party agrees to make payments, and the other party agrees to facilitate that. In other words, I believe they're obligated to fulfil their side of this contract, and to operate within certain bounds of goodwill, decency and good faith. I don't honestly see how Advantage can cancel an agreement in this way, for no good reason, and I'm still being held over the fire. I'm not up on breach-of-contract law, but this seems to me to be a clear breach, and now I'm faced with either finding the money to repay in full, entering into another agreement with the company who have already screwed me over at even worse terms than before, or having my car taken away and being liable for any disparity between the auction price and the balance on the agreement.
17. I'm amazed that I can make the effort to put my finances in order, so that part of my salary is automatically transferred into a separate account meant for the purpose of paying my bills, and now because of the actions of this disreputable firm I find myself with a huge debt and a default against my name.
18. According to Advantage, I can only settle for just under £4000, which seems crazy to me given all of the above, the fact I only borrowed £3000 to begin with (and I made payments against that balance before they cancelled the agreement) - I've managed to raise £3500 and I've made them that offer in writing.
Can anyone advise on what my next course of action might be? If they accept the £3500, can I still look at taking legal action against them for breaching the contract? Does cancellation of the contract, as described above, constitute breach of contract in the first place? It seems like it should, but that doesn't mean anything, necessarily.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
I've had all sorts of problems with Advantage Finance, and I'm looking for some feedback. I would like to mention in advance that I believe some of this stuff to sound implausible, but there is written proof of everything I say here.
So, a quick summary of this would be:
1. I bought a car from a dealer, using Advantage for finance for £3000 of the £4000 price.
2. I made several payments on time by DD.
3. I notified them that there were several issues with the car;
a - the parking sensors have never been reliable, and this nearly caused a couple of incidents before I realized they were intermittent
b - the brakes make a clunking noise and squeal when applied - this wasn't apparent on the test-drive, but has been getting worse
c - the brakes also caused one of the tyres to be damaged, and this had to be replaced
d - the power steering pump clunks sporadically
4. I got reports on all of these faults from a local Kwik-Fit, and Advantage paid to have the brakes repaired. This did not resolve the issue, however, as the issue persists, and this has also been the subject of another report by the same Kwik-Fit. Advantage refused to pay for the replacement tyre.
5. Some arguments were had with Advantage staff about the car, which I notified them that I wanted to return as faulty, as I was within the 6 months, and I was unhappy with the number of faults. They refused, and they spoke to me pretty badly. I reminded them that they are a finance company, and that I am their customer - they shouldn't be treating everybody who owes them money as if they're some sort of criminal: we're their customer and their sole revenue stream.
6. I sent another report to Advantage from the garage detailing faults 5 months in, and they didn't respond. I chased again, they still didn't respond. They have since admitted that this is an accurate description of what happened: I tried to get in contact, they didn't come back to me. This will be important later.
7. I rearranged all my finances, and now have all my direct debits paid out of one specific bank account. I provided these details to Advantage, in writing, 3 weeks before the next payment was due. They wrote back saying that they were declining to accept these details, as they weren't provided in a way of which they approved. I said I thought providing them in writing was sufficient, and that I wanted all future payments to be taken from the account I had specified. At this point in time I was not in arrears, and they had loads of time to arrange the direct debit. I genuinely felt like they were treating me the way they were because of the previous arguments over my attempt to return the car as faulty; it always felt like I was being drawn into an argument.
8. I received a call from Advantage, and I was told again that they were not accepting the direct debit information. I said, and I quote: "I sent the same details to providers of my car insurance, home insurance, car tax, and lots of other companies. I gave them to you in loads of time, and if it's good enough for the DVLA then I don't see why it's not good enough for you. And now you're deliberately inconveniencing me and trying to justify it by quoting some !!!!!!!! technicality." The agent tried to tell me off for swearing at her, I replied that in the context I used the word I wasn't swearing AT her, and she hung up. I then received a letter from Advantage which demanded a written apology for my conduct and threatened me with police action for the virulent verbal abuse I had subjected their member of staff to. I ignored this threat, of course.
9. Advantage set up a direct debit with my bank, using the details I had provided to them. This was confirmed by my bank, in writing: they set up the direct debit, they were fully capable of taking payment on the agreed payment date. Advantage then sent me confirmation in writing that they had set up the direct debit, and would be taking payment.
10. I then received a Termination notice in the mail, which said that since I had refused to make payment, they had cancelled the agreement and would be going to court in order to repossess my car. I called them and was told this was an administration error, that this letter should never have been sent out.
11. Advantage did not take payment on the agreed DD date. I then found a note on my doormat from some collection 'agent' saying he'd been to collect the car, and I wasn't home. This note demanded that I surrender the car.
12. I did not surrender the car, and I told Advantage I would be making a complaint through the Financial Ombudsman's Service.
13. I complained to the FOS, citing:
a - Advantage's refusal to deal with the fact that the car was faulty when sold
b - Advantage's refusal to allow me to reject a car as faulty, despite my provision of several garage reports within six months of purchase
c - Advantage refusing to take payment, despite setting up the Direct Debit
d - Advantage lodging a default notice against me, and putting this on my credit file despite the fact I had never once refused to pay them, despite the fact that they had full access to the payment, having a direct debit established and then not taking the money, and despite the fact that I can prove that there were funds in the account more than sufficient to cover the direct debit amount.
I provided all of this detail in writing to the FOS, and I was sure that my case was strong, because I had shown good faith, continued to make payments even when Advantage refused to uphold their obligations relating to the faults on the car and my rejection of said car, proved that I had not only provided the details with time to spare but that Advantage had used them to set up a direct debit and then not taken payment. How could I lose?
14. The FOS adjudicator somehow came to the conclusion that even though Advantage had complete access to the money and didn't take it, they were within their rights to cancel the agreement, and not only am I the one being "obstructive" (she somehow thought that even though it was Advantage refusing to respond to me, which they admitted, it was all my fault for "refusing to engage with Advantage", see point #6), but that I'm also liable for the entire balance of the agreement. Advantage have done nothing wrong, apparently, and I'm the one in the wrong, because I had an argument with one of Advantage's people on the phone a year ago. She also described this as a "favourable" outcome for me, which actually made me burst out laughing.
15. My bank manager told me he's never seen anything like this, and said that he's never seen before a case where the FOS have found in favor of a company who have outright refused to take payment, even after sending me confirmation that they would be taking payment. He was also the guy who provided me with the proof that the direct debit was set up with more than enough time to take payment on the agreed date.
16. I'm absolutely sure that a financial agreement includes two-way obligations, and that both parties need to be held to the same standards. One party agrees to provide money, and the other party agrees to pay interest on the loan. One party agrees to make payments, and the other party agrees to facilitate that. In other words, I believe they're obligated to fulfil their side of this contract, and to operate within certain bounds of goodwill, decency and good faith. I don't honestly see how Advantage can cancel an agreement in this way, for no good reason, and I'm still being held over the fire. I'm not up on breach-of-contract law, but this seems to me to be a clear breach, and now I'm faced with either finding the money to repay in full, entering into another agreement with the company who have already screwed me over at even worse terms than before, or having my car taken away and being liable for any disparity between the auction price and the balance on the agreement.
17. I'm amazed that I can make the effort to put my finances in order, so that part of my salary is automatically transferred into a separate account meant for the purpose of paying my bills, and now because of the actions of this disreputable firm I find myself with a huge debt and a default against my name.
18. According to Advantage, I can only settle for just under £4000, which seems crazy to me given all of the above, the fact I only borrowed £3000 to begin with (and I made payments against that balance before they cancelled the agreement) - I've managed to raise £3500 and I've made them that offer in writing.
Can anyone advise on what my next course of action might be? If they accept the £3500, can I still look at taking legal action against them for breaching the contract? Does cancellation of the contract, as described above, constitute breach of contract in the first place? It seems like it should, but that doesn't mean anything, necessarily.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Comments
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Wow - long post.
I suspect you took a wrong turn at step 3. The role of Advantage is to provide you with the money to buy the car. Any problems with the car should have been addressed to the dealer that supplied it, and they (not Advantage) should have been responsible for fixing it.
If the dealer fails to rectify the problems you would need to take legal action against them, not the finance company (because the finance company has met its obligations by providing you with the money).
When it comes to taking legal action against Advantage, you would need to take a very close look at the fine print of the agreement that you signed with them. This will definitely include a section or sections on Termination of the agreement - only when you have read and understood this (and sought legal advice if necessary) will you know whether they have breached the terms of the agreement.
If I had to guess, I would say that it's unlikely they have - but that really is just a guess.0 -
Indeed, very long post! As the saying goes, there are always 2 sides to a story...
I'm sure there are some holes in your story, a company will not go as far as they have, without good reason... So when you knew you missed a payment, what did you do - did you try ring & pay over the phone?
When you received the default notice - did you try ring, make arrangements & pay? You keep mentioning the funds were in your account... The notice usually gives you 2-3 weeks to pay, before you actually 'default' on your repayments and it goes any further. What did you do to remedy the missed payments?
When you say the request you made to update the DD details was not sufficient, why was this? Usually this can only happen with the bank's automated switching service (if you changed banks) - or you complete a paper or electronic DD mandate form - or giving details over the phone is usually sufficient to implement a new Direct Debit... What did you do for it to not be acceptable?
Car issues on finance, can be very hard to argue and prove... How many miles did you put on the car before reporting any issues or getting the Kwik-fit report done? I imagine the issues with brakes & the tyre were deemed wear and tear, which is probably why that didn't get far.
You mention to settle you need to pay £4k but borrowed £3k - have you asked how the interest works out? I presume it's a high interest rate, as Advantage offer credit to people with not so great credit history...
EDIT: Sorry to answer the bottom line question, to be able to take legal action, you would need to prove there was a breach of contract. Maybe worth a consultation with a solicitor who offers a free 30 minute chin wag? From what you posted, I think you will find it hard to prove they have breached the contract terms, quite the opposite...0 -
You can't expect a direct debit to be set up by just sending the company your bank details.
Paperless DDs require a process to be followed which will involve certain scripts that must be used in order for the DD to be valid and to protect the originator from the risk of the customer claiming back all of the payments over a technicality.
If all the other companies were setting up DDs on that basis then it is they who are in the wrong! Did Advantage mention a process that they needed to go though, and if so what was your response, because it sounds like by this point if you were shouting and swearing then you probably wasn't being very co-operative.
If you have not had any success with your complaint at FOS (who are usually very quick to find against firms in the event of any wrongdoing) then I doubt you will get very far in court.
As the old saying goes, when pointing the finger of blame, it is often worth considering where the other three fingers are pointing......0 -
If the dealer fails to rectify the problems you would need to take legal action against them, not the finance company (because the finance company has met its obligations by providing you with the money).
Not actually true. The finance company has obligations under section 75 the consumer credit act. That said I do agree with the rest of your post.2.88 kWp System, SE Facing, 30 Degree Pitch, 12 x 240W Conergy Panels, Samil Solar River Inverter, Havant, Hampshire. Installed July 2012, acquired by me on purchase of house in August 20170 -
cjmillsnun wrote: »Not actually true. The finance company has obligations under section 75 the consumer credit act.
Thanks for the reminder - I had in mind that there was "joint and several" liability, but couldn't bring to mind the piece of legislation that applied.
It does make me wonder how it is ~supposed~ to work in practice. For example, if a dealer sells you a scabby old car and you claim the cost of repairs from the finance company, are they supposed to take legal action against the dealer for the cost of repairing the defects (which after all are not their fault)?
Anyway the correction was worthwhile "for the record", though I doubt the OP will be back to comment anyway.0
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