Penalty from DVLA for car that I no longer own

delirious

At the beginning of May I VT'd my car and the finance company sent G3 Auctions to collect the car. The car was collected and the finance company had told me to give G3 Auctions the logbook with the car, which I did. Because I gave them the logbook, I sent DVLA a breif letter saying the car had been passed on to G3 Auctions, with their address and the date it was passed to them.

Two months later (beginning of July), I received a letter from DVLA advising me that as I had not paid the tax or SORN'd the car, I am responsible for the tax that is due and a penalty of £80, which will reduce to £40 if paid by 17th July. I rang them and was advised to write to them confirming again that I no longer have the car, so sent a letter recorded delivery and have received a reply back from them today saying that as they didn't receive notification that the car has been transferred to a new owner, the penalty AND tax arrears stand and I telling me the various ways in which to pay.

The letter also points out that we are now passed the point in which I can pay the reduced fine because that was only valid until 17th July (although we are only passed this date because they took so long to reply).

So, I have 2 questions:

1. Going by the new DVLA rules, a new keeper has to tax the car as soon as they take ownership of it and not once DVLA are aware (i.e. you have to tax it with new keeper bit on the day of transfer). Therefore, can I argue that I should not be responsible for the tax of the car from that date, and therefore should not pay the arrears, regardless of whether or not DVLA received the letter I sent them? I have proof from G3 acutions of when they collected the car.

2. Do I have to prove I sent them the letter telling them that the car had been passed to G3 auctions, or do they have to prove they didn't receive it? Their letter says they would have sent an acknowledgement letter out and had I not received it within 4 weeks, I should have notified them, but how am I supposed to know that in advance?

Thanks

takman

delirious wrote: »

At the beginning of May I VT'd my car and the finance company sent G3 Auctions to collect the car. The car was collected and the finance company had told me to give G3 Auctions the logbook with the car, which I did. Because I gave them the logbook, I sent DVLA a breif letter saying the car had been passed on to G3 Auctions, with their address and the date it was passed to them.

Two months later (beginning of July), I received a letter from DVLA advising me that as I had not paid the tax or SORN'd the car, I am responsible for the tax that is due and a penalty of £80, which will reduce to £40 if paid by 17th July. I rang them and was advised to write to them confirming again that I no longer have the car, so sent a letter recorded delivery and have received a reply back from them today saying that as they didn't receive notification that the car has been transferred to a new owner, the penalty AND tax arrears stand and I telling me the various ways in which to pay.

The letter also points out that we are now passed the point in which I can pay the reduced fine because that was only valid until 17th July (although we are only passed this date because they took so long to reply).

So, I have 2 questions:

1. Going by the new DVLA rules, a new keeper has to tax the car as soon as they take ownership of it and not once DVLA are aware (i.e. you have to tax it with new keeper bit on the day of transfer). Therefore, can I argue that I should not be responsible for the tax of the car from that date, and therefore should not pay the arrears, regardless of whether or not DVLA received the letter I sent them? I have proof from G3 acutions of when they collected the car.

2. Do I have to prove I sent them the letter telling them that the car had been passed to G3 auctions, or do they have to prove they didn't receive it? Their letter says they would have sent an acknowledgement letter out and had I not received it within 4 weeks, I should have notified them, but how am I supposed to know that in advance?

Thanks

Section 12 on the log book (which details the procedure for transferring the car to a new registered keeper) also states that you should ring the DVLA if you don't receive a reply within 4 weeks of informing them of the change.

So considering you didn't call them when you didn't receive the letter as stated you are still the registered keeper so are still liable for the tax.

Even though you have proof that the car changed ownership to G3 Auctions on that date that is completely separate to being the registered keeper as the registered keeper and owner can be different (as it states on the log book).

For future reference you can change the registered keeper online and get instant notification that it has been completed.

Strider590

Just another case of the DVLA automated system issuing a fine, no matter what you do, what you can prove, they'll keep changing what the fine is actually for until they find something inescapable.

You either pay or you take it to court, at court people usually win, but the costs of that + having a day off work actually works out worse than paying the fine.

neilmcl

Strider590 wrote: »

Just another case of the DVLA automated system issuing a fine, no matter what you do, what you can prove, they'll keep changing what the fine is actually for until they find something inescapable.

You either pay or you take it to court, at court people usually win, but the costs of that + having a day off work actually works out worse than paying the fine.

Nonsense again. The OP failed in his obligation to transfer the vehicle correctly, plain and simple. If he'd filled in the V5C correctly or even done it online he wouldn't be in the position he is in now. Ignorance is not a defence.

Strider590

neilmcl wrote: »

Nonsense again. The OP failed in his obligation to transfer the vehicle correctly, plain and simple. If he'd filled in the V5C correctly or even done it online he wouldn't be in the position he is in now. Ignorance is not a defence.

So you say, but I have first hand experience. Despite doing everything as required, the only thing I did wrong was not sending the V5 slip to them by recorded signed for delivery. Several letters went back/forth, but they all get automated responses, there is no reasoning with them once they issue a fine. Fail to pay and they'll send the debt collectors.

If a private company operated this way, they get torn to pieces.

peter_the_piper

Do DVLA even sign for anything? All you can ever get is proof of posting and then chase them up if you hear nothing from them in 3-4 weeks.

Strider590

peter_the_piper wrote: »

Do DVLA even sign for anything? All you can ever get is proof of posting and then chase them up if you hear nothing from them in 3-4 weeks.

No, not any more..... As the advice (regarding sending signed for post) became more well known, they decided to point blank refuse recorded and signed for post. I guess it was making it harder to screw people over.

takman

Strider590 wrote: »

So you say, but I have first hand experience. Despite doing everything as required, the only thing I did wrong was not sending the V5 slip to them by recorded signed for delivery. Several letters went back/forth, but they all get automated responses, there is no reasoning with them once they issue a fine. Fail to pay and they'll send the debt collectors.

If a private company operated this way, they get torn to pieces.

So they issued you the fine before the 4 weeks had passed?. When you didn't get the letter confirming they had received the V5 within 4 weeks what did they say when you rang up?.

Joe_Horner

takman wrote: »

So they issued you the fine before the 4 weeks had passed?. When you didn't get the letter confirming they had received the V5 within 4 weeks what did they say when you rang up?.

The "letter within 4 weeks" bit is a red herring. You do NOT need to chase them up if you don't get confirmation, although it's a good idea to do so.

What I mean by that is:

Having sent appropriate notification, there is NO legal requirement whatsoever for you to chase them if you don't hear back. The fact they tell you to on the V5 does NOT make it a requirement, much as they like to give that impression.

In fact, there's no legal requirement for them to even send an acknowledgement - they do so as a "courtesy". And there can't be a legal requirement for you to chase something that they don't legally have to provide!

But, accepting that things do go astray, if you know that they normally do confirm receipt, chasing them up if one doesn't arrive can save a lot of aggravation.

The possible difficulty here is whether or not the OP has provided the required notice to them.

When transferring a car, YOU are supposed to return the V5 to DVSA, not rely on the new keeper / person collecting the car to do so.

The problem is, at a guess, that on a VT the finance company aren't going to want an extra keeper on the V5 for the time it takes to put it through auction, so they get the auction house to collect, sell, and (presumably) either get you to pre-sign the transfer part or forge your signature when it sells.

That leaves you at the mercy of the auction house to ensure the V5 is sent in after the sale and, under current rules, also leaves you liable to either keep the car taxed and insured until it's sold or declare it SORN and trust that they do indeed keep it off road.

molerat

There will not be an extra keeper if the V5 is filled in or DVLA on line notified as transferred to a trader. Always send DVLA post with proof of postage and staple it to what you have left of the V5 and store away safely.

Strider590

takman wrote: »

So they issued you the fine before the 4 weeks had passed?. When you didn't get the letter confirming they had received the V5 within 4 weeks what did they say when you rang up?.

This was many years ago, before they sent confirmations, but that part is in small print that nobody reads now anyway.