Private parking ticket HELP!!!

MMM84

Ok thank you. Have I made it much harder for myself having already admitting being the driver of the vehicle?

Coupon-mad

You have thrown away an appeal point, but I would still expect you can win using 3 or 4 others from the templates, and putting them to strict proof of where the other P&D machine was (not many PPCs show pics of machines, just random signs).

MMM84

Hi,
Unfortunately I still haven't had time to write my appeal to POPLA as my son has been unwell.
I'm now stressing as I am running out of time!
I'm in two minds of what to do next.......A. Just pay it, or B. Just ignore it! Lots of people have told me just to do the latter but I am unsure! I can handle the threating letters etc but worry about court action.

waamo

They don't go to court often. Here are the figures.

http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Corporate_Services_Hereford.html

They have up to 6 years to pursue a claim so that could change in the future.

MMM84

Hi again!!!
I've found some time and done a lot of copy n paste......can you please look through my appeal letter to POPLA and let me know your thoughts. Do I need to add/take out anything? Thanks you so much.



Dear POPLA Assessor,

I am the registered keeper of vehicle registration XXXX XXX and I wish to appeal a recent parking charge number XXXXXXX using POPLA appeal code XXXXXX.


I have had my appeal rejected from Corporate services (Hereford) after receiving a parking ticket whilst visiting a woodland park.
We arrived in the car park, Parked up, got my 2 year old son out of the car and proceeded to the ticket machine. Only to find that it was out of order. The notice on the machine said to ‘use the machine in the woodland car park’. Having never been there before I (with my son) proceeded to walk around the car park looking for said ticket machine. While doing this I also came across another family doing the same thing!
After we did about 2 laps of the car park, and the other family deciding to leave as it was starting to rain I tried to find someone to ask. 10/15 minutes later with the weather worsening, not being able to find anyone to ask and without a contact number or directions on any of the signage we made the decision not to completely waste our 35 mile journey and go for a quick walk.
Around 20 minutes later we returned to the vehicle and were horrified to find a 'parking ticket'. I looked at the other vehicles parked around me and none had tickets or parking tickets and still no one around to ask!
I then did another lap of the car park and I 100% sure that there isn’t another ticket machine in the car park where I was parked. (See photos)


I then appealed the ticket to Corporate Services explaining the situation and asking where the other ticket machine was, but simply got a automated response saying my appeal was rejected.


I then emailed the park direct telling them what had happened and if indeed there was another ticket machine and if so, where?? Again I have had no response and I am still none the wiser if in fact there is another ticket machine at all!
I am appealing this penalty on the grounds stated above & below, and I respectfully ask that all points are taken into consideration.

1. Signage
2. No contract with the Landowner
3. The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss

1/ Signage
The alleged breach took place due to the ticket machine being ‘out of order’ and inadequate signage displaying clear information.
The BPA Code of Practice states: 18.1 A driver who uses your private car park with your permission does so under a licence or contract with you. If they park without your permission this will usually be an act of trespass. In all cases, the driver’s use of your land will be governed by your terms and conditions, which the driver should be made aware of from the start. You must use signs to make it easy for them to find out what your terms and conditions are. (Please note that due to the lack of clear information, directions or contact numbers we were unable to purchase a ticket.) 18.3 Specific parking terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving.” There was no contract between myself and Corporate Services as I did not see any contractual information on any of the signs when entering the car park and therefore at that time had no idea that any contract or restrictions applied. As a consequence the requirements for forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, and certainty of terms were not satisfied.

2/ No contract with the Landowner
Corporate Services Hereford does not own the car park and I dispute that they have the authority to enter into contracts regarding the land or to pursue charges allegedly arising.
Corporate Services has also not provided any evidence that it is lawfully entitled to demand money from the driver or keeper. They do not own nor have any proprietary or agency rights or assignment of title or share of the land in question. I do not believe that the Operator has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park they do not own, or indeed the lawful status to allege a breach of contract in their name.
Corporate Services must provide the POPLA Adjudicator with documentary evidence in the form of a copy of the actual site agreement/contract with the landowner/occupier. Specifically, to comply with the Code of Practice, the contract needs to specifically grant Corporate Services the right to pursue parking charges in the courts in their own name, as creditor. Please note that a 'Witness Statement' to the effect that a contract is in place between Corporate Services and the landowner will be insufficient to provide all the required information, and will therefore be unsatisfactory.

3/ Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
In their response Corporate Services did not address this issue, and has not stated why they feel a £75 charge is an appropriate pre-estimate of loss caused by my car that was parked in a practically empty car park.
The Department for Transport guidelines state, in Section 16 Frequently Asked Questions, that: "Charges for breaking a parking contract must be reasonable and a genuine pre-estimate of loss. This means charges must compensate the landholder only for the loss they are likely to suffer because the parking contract has been broken. For example, to cover the unpaid charges and the administrative costs associated with issuing the ticket to recover the charges. Charges may not be set at higher levels than necessary to recover business losses and the intention should not be to penalise the driver." Considering the 35 minute stay(10/15 minutes of that time looking for another ticket machine that doesn’t seem to exist) I contest that £75 is not a reasonable or genuine pre-estimate of loss. The entirety of the parking charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss in order to be enforceable. I require the parking company to submit a breakdown of how these costs are calculated. All of these costs must represent a loss resulting from the alleged breach. For example, were no breach to have occurred then the cost of parking enforcement (for example, erecting signage, wages, uniforms, office costs) would still have been the same and, therefore, may not be included. It would, therefore, follow that these charges were punitive, have an element of profit included and are not allowed to be imposed by parking companies.


With all this in mind, I request that my appeal is upheld and for POPLA to inform Corporate Services to cancel the PCN.

Yours faithfully,

Umkomaas

3/ Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss

Has been dead in the water as a POPLA appeal point for almost 2 years. The PE v Beavis case all but put paid to it. Put that in your appeal and POPLA is likely to overlook everything else and dismiss your appeal. Don't give them that opportunity!

While signage and landowner contract are viable appeal points, there are ready written templates for these (and others) in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3. Go there, read them and use as appropriate.

Come back with your second draft.

MMM84

I've changed the landowner contract and taken out some points as advised. I'm now struggling with the 'signage' point and also can't really see any other points I can add to it.?




Dear POPLA Assessor,

I am the registered keeper of vehicle registration XXXX XXX and I wish to appeal a recent parking charge number XXXXXXX using POPLA appeal code XXXXXX.


I have had my appeal rejected from Corporate services (Hereford) after receiving a parking ticket whilst visiting a woodland park.
We arrived in the car park, Parked up, got my 2 year old son out of the car and proceeded to the ticket machine. Only to find that it was out of order. The notice on the machine said to ‘use the machine in the woodland car park’. Having never been there before I (with my son) proceeded to walk around the car park looking for said ticket machine. While doing this I also came across other family doing the same thing!
After we did about 2 laps of the car park, and the other family deciding to leave as it was starting to rain I tried to find someone to ask. 10/15 minutes later with the weather worsening, not being able to find anyone to ask and without a telephone number or directions on any of the signage we made the decision not to completely waste our 35 mile journey and go for a quick walk.
Around 20 minutes later we returned to the vehicle and were horrified to find a 'parking ticket'. I looked at the other vehicles parked around me and none had tickets or parking tickets and still no one around to ask!
I then did another lap of the car park and I am 100% sure that there isn’t another ticket machine in the car park where I was parked. (See photos)


I then appealed the ticket to Corporate Services explaining the situation and asking where the other ticket machine was but simply got a automated response saying my appeal was rejected.


I then emailed the park direct telling them what had happened and if indeed there was another ticket machine and if so where?? Again I have had no response and I am still none the wiser if in fact there is another ticket machine at all!
I am appealing this penalty on the grounds stated above & below, and I respectfully ask that all points are taken into consideration.

1. Signage
2. No contract with the Landowner

1/ Signage
The alleged breach took place due to the ticket machine being ‘out of order’ and inadequate signage displaying clear information.
The BPA Code of Practice states: 18.1 A driver who uses your private car park with your permission does so under a licence or contract with you. If they park without your permission this will usually be an act of trespass. In all cases, the driver’s use of your land will be governed by your terms and conditions, which the driver should be made aware of from the start. You must use signs to make it easy for them to find out what your terms and conditions are. (Please note that due to the lack of clear information, directions or contact numbers we were unable to purchase a ticket.) 18.3 Specific parking terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving.” There was no contract between myself and Corporate Services as I did not see any contractual information on any of the signs when entering the car park and therefore at that time had no idea that any contract or restrictions applied. As a consequence the requirements for forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, and certainty of terms were not satisfied.

2/ No contract with the Landowner


As Corporate Services does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what Corporate Services is authorized to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because Corporate Services is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorized to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorized can give rise to a charge and of course, how much the landowner authorizes this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).

Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

7.2 If Corporate Services wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

7.3 The written authorization must also set out:

a. The definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

b. Any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

c. Any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

d. Who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

e. The definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement


With all this in mind, I request that my appeal is upheld and for POPLA to inform Corporate Services to cancel the PCN.

Yours faithfully,