Relocating to Welsh-speaking Wales

moneyistooshorttomention

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Obviously one would accept not understanding general conversation in a foreign country - eg France, Spain, etc.

But within Britain - one expects to be able to understand general conversation and take part in it - and I expect we'll have to agree to disagree on that too. I could go off and google for the statistics - but I guess we all know that the vast majority of Welsh people also don't speak Welsh - so it's not just English people and foreigners that are being "excluded" if general conversations aren't in a general language we all know. A lot of people would be excluding their own wife or husband if they didn't speak in a general language - as I come across many Welsh men that have married English women.

I don't think an "inconvenient hoop" would be an appropriate way to describe speaking English in a general conversation. I'd describe it as polite/considerate. Apart from the very small percentage of Welsh-only speakers that one barely encounters - I've very rarely found even a first language Welsh speaker not speaking English just as easily as I do. I think I can count on one hand the number of times where they've used the wrong word/not been sure of the correct spelling of a pretty easy word and asked me what is correct word/spelling. Fair enough - and I answer the query...

stoozie1

Its an inconvenient hoop to jump through to have to change the first language of a relationship that you have with someone, and it takes mental effort and awkwardness to do so, even if both people are fluent in the other language. This is reported by all people with 2 full lexica; it is not easy to shift the language of a relationship.

It has taken a lot of perseverance to get my children to respond to me in Welsh when i address them in Welsh, as their mother tongue is English.

I therefore wouldn't want to push that 'work' onto another person, I don't want to inconvenience them.

moneyistooshorttomention

Out of interest - why do you want them to respond to you in Welsh?

Does your wife only speak English to them and your children don't go to a Welsh medium school?

moneyistooshorttomention

Out of interest - cant recall the name - but a new invention has just gone on the market. Cost a reasonable one - £140. It's been mentioned in articles over the last week in several newspapers. It's a sort of instant translation earpiece (a la Star Trek) - and it means that two people can both speak to each other in the language of their choice and the other person will understand it (even if they don't speak that language - as it will translate it into their own for them). So a Chinese and English speaker were holding a conversation with each other in their respective languages.

Early days and it's not planned to make this in Welsh yet - but I'm guessing there is a market for public sector employers in Wales to purchase these for staff once they do and then they can drop the "must speak Welsh" requirement that there is for some jobs.

EDIT; Just checked the name of the gadget. It's Timekettle's WT2 Bluetooth headset.

stoozie1

I want them to respond to me in Welsh to improve their Welsh, and practice my own.

My husband speaks English and Welsh to them as do I, we are both learners. They go to English school, where Welsh is unfortunately taught badly.

What I meant was that when I, their mother, addresses them in a language that is not the first language of our relationship: English, it creates effort for them, even though their Welsh is amazing.

I am using this to demonstrate that it is hard to change the language of a relationship.

Say both you and your mother spoke a good A level standard French, and I asked you to only speak French to her in my prescence, it would be awkward. Not because of any poverty in your French, but because there is an awkwardness in shifting the natural language of a close relationship, even if it is possible, because both are fluent.

stoozie1

Those devices would never erode the need for public sector workers to speak Welsh.

That's not the point.

moneyistooshorttomention

I think they would be ideal. Those wishing to speak Welsh to a public sector worker would do so if that is what they wanted. The worker would hear them (via the gadget) in English. The worker would then reply in English and the other person would hear the reply in Welsh.

So therefore no need whatsoever in face-to-face encounters.

I imagine it's not going to be long before the technology we can already use to hold a "conversation" via the Internet with some firms will have a good enough Google Translate feature in that would do the trick for both to use their own language of choice.

Which only leaves telephone conversations - as the member of public wishing to speak Welsh at the end of the phone may have decided not to buy one of these gadgets for themselves. I guess it's easy enough to get round that one way or another and, if technology doesnt allow for it just yet - it can't be far away now.

Re awkwardness in talking - the first language Welsh friend I was talking to this morning never seems to find any awkwardness in teasing me perfectly well in our conversations. She's never faltered for a word yet that I've ever noticed.

ChasingtheWelshdream

This is really interesting as we relocated to Wales 6 months ago.

We originally looked at Ceredigion, but decided against it due to the lack of English medium schools. Our two eldest children would have really struggled to suddenly change to Welsh medium, and there was no provision to continue in English.

So we moved inland to Powys, which is English speaking. All our children now attend a dual stream school, and we are all learning Welsh as a second language. Our youngest (4), although in the English stream is learning Welsh brilliantly, so much so that we wish we had sent him to the Welsh stream.

It is interesting to see people's attitude to Welsh here though. Most people in our town, including those who have lived here all their lives, can't see the point of us learning Welsh at all. However, we see it as a national language, which even if not spoken locally, is written everywhere and it seems natural to do our best.

However, I work in local government, and it is not a requirement to speak Welsh at all. There must be a provision should someone want to speak Welsh, and all literature is bi-lingual, but staff are not excluded if they are unable to.

At work, there are a couple of Welsh first-language colleagues. They speak Welsh to each other, but wouldn't dream of excluding the rest. In fact, when I have tried to practice my rudimentary Welsh, they find it unnatural to respond. "It doesn't seem right to speak Welsh to a non-native speaker", which is frustrating at times.

Conversely, one colleague was brought up with Welsh-medium education and a Welsh-speaking husband. She still struggles with some Welsh as she doesn't use it daily. And she lives in Gwynedd.

I honestly do think there is an old perception of 'not liking the English'. I certainly haven't come across this at all in my forays around Wales - Welsh speaking or otherwise. And I honestly can't see how there can be bias against non-Welsh speakers, as the majority of Wales do not speak Welsh. (I hope that hasn't caused offence. By that I mean native speakers. There is a far larger percentage who can understand Welsh, but are English first language. All children must learn Welsh until age 16, but that doesn't mean they use it outside the classroom.)

All in all, I would say go for it and not worry. You will fit in because you are you, not the language you speak.

Moving here is the best thing we have ever done and I thoroughly recommend it!

ChasingtheWelshdream

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

I have yet to hear any of the children at all ever speak to each other in any language other than English. I think the children just think of it as "the school language" and "the language we all actually speak to each other in is English" as far as I can make out.

This is very interesting. Our children attend a dual-stream school. We very nearly changed our 4 year old into the Welsh stream, as there are so many advantages to being bi-lingual. For various reasons we decided against it.

One reason was the many anecdotes of children 'forgetting' their Welsh once at senior school, should they continue in the English stream (common around here). In our area there is very little opportunity to practice Welsh outside formal lessons, and the school children do indeed see it as a 'school language' only. Anecdotally, many children who have English education seem to do just as well as Welsh in the Welsh GCSEs. (I do realise there are two standards of Welsh GCSE.)

I suppose my point is, in this area at least, learning Welsh (although welcome) seems to be a political exercise. Should my neighbour, Welsh born and bred, be excluded if she goes to the north for a holiday? I honestly can't see it.

Red-Squirrel_2

benjus wrote: »

If you move to Barcelona, is it enough to learn Spanish or should you learn Catalan instead/as well? Or Basque if you move to Bilbao? Those are more appropriate analogies.

If you go to Barcelona you'll certainly get a warmer welcome if you learn at least a few basic phrases in Catalan!