PCN from UKCPS Ltd- Right to object/Appeal?

MoneySavingExpert12345

Hi All,


Firstly hello (first post to forum but a long time user of the website and forum).


I am writing regarding a PCN a friend of mine received yesterday at 9am on a vehicle. To give a bit of background, they are not the registered keeper of the vehicle (personal lease hire car), and the vehicle was parked just off a main road, leading up to a gated entrance to some industrial premises.


I have included some pictures in the below link. (car was parked in between where the white Audi and silver Corsa are parked in the image)



imgh.us/Image1_60.jpg (Main Image- Car was parked in between where audi and corsa are in image)



imgh.us/Image3_22.jpg (Entrance signs at gate- car parked outside of this boundary)



imgh.us/Image2_27.jpg (Another parking sign on opposite side to where parked, stuck into ground on edge of wasteland)




Now my grounds for thinking this is an unreasonable PCN are:

• There seems to be no clear warning that parking is not permitted on the left hand side.
• As you can see on the image, there are 2 parking signs on the gated entrance (white signs on either side of cream painted wall), which imply they are entrance warnings to that site.......the car was outside of the walls/gate and therefore not on that site.
• There was another small sign on the right hand side as you turn in (stuck into the ground next to the bush), this is stuck in the grass over the boundary into the wasteland to the right. I do not see this as a warning to not park on the opposite side.

Now I have done some basic research on the sticky threads and other websites etc. and it seems like it is less favourable that this company are IPC registered, and the appeal process in this case seems a lot less successful/robust/transparent than BPA registered operators. (Correct me if I am wrong).


Now I am leaning towards using the Std appeal template for IPC registered companies from the newbies threat, however.............my concern is that the template seems more focused around things like who owns the land, what the charge is for, photos, timings etc.


Questions:


1) If I do use this template, why am I not at this stage raising the point that it is not clear (in my opinion) that it is forbidden to park on the patch of land.
2) If I was to fight this via appeal/ignoring further communication and potential small claims court hearing, what are my chances of winning, say if it went to court.
3) Any advice on best course of action would be greatly appreciated.


Regards

Umkomaas

1) If I do use this template, why am I not at this stage raising the point that it is not clear (in my opinion) that it is forbidden to park on the patch of land.

Use it if you want, but it will have no positive benefit. If you've been reading the NEWBIES sticky you will know that almost every appeal to an IPC operator ends in failure.

2) If I was to fight this via appeal/ignoring further communication and potential small claims court hearing, what are my chances of winning, say if it went to court.

50:50. Very unpredictable. Much will depend on how good their particulars of claim are, or how good your defence is. Depends too whether you have a freshly spanked and brandied up judge with a beaming grin, or a bit of an ogre with a face like a busted boot. It's anybody's guess, but those we've helped with defences have almost all won their cases.

3) Any advice on best course of action would be greatly appreciated.

Initial appeal, thereafter ignore everything other than court papers; come back if you receive any.

Have you tried to determine who the landowner is and asked them to intervene to get this cancelled?

It would be better that your friend comes in on this thread, otherwise there's a danger of Chinese Whispers coming into play.

Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance!

HTH

MoneySavingExpert12345

Firstly thanks for quick reply, appreciated.


I did read the part about unsuccessful appeals however I just wondered if not mentioning the reason for thinking the PCN is not justified in the first place may hinder us at a later stage, for example if it did go to court.


Ok so I am to appeal and then ignore further correspondence. Do you have any idea of the chances of them taking it to court (for example from experience you/others have of this particular company).


& also what the potential cost of losing would be, i.e. how much would they be able to charge me, would it be an inflated amount with court costs on top of that also? If so I am weighing up the £60 payment now vs a 50/50 chance of winning in court if it was to come to that.


Also, what were your thoughts on the photos in my OP, do you believe the signs are good enough to make it clear?


Regards

MoneySavingExpert12345

Also, my friend is in fact my partner who has asked me to deal with this on her behalf.

MoneySavingExpert12345

Also, another question (sorry)....


How do we identify ourselves on the appeal letter? Legally she is not the registered keeper (lease hire car as mentioned in OP). Ideally we want correspondence to come to us in future though and not miss letters due to them getting sent to the lease company surely?

Regards

Umkomaas

Ok so I am to appeal and then ignore further correspondence. Do you have any idea of the chances of them taking it to court (for example from experience you/others have of this particular company).

http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/UKCPS.html

They do issue some court papers but I've not seen one case over the past 18 months where we've been asked to help with a defence against UKCPS. It is quite likely that court cases enumerated in the above link are mainly default judgments, i.e., the claim was ignored by the motorist, then everything goes through almost automatically once the initial papers have been issued.

If you receive court papers we can help with a defence. If UKCPS see a strong defence, they'll likely back off. Bullies usually run away when someone fights back!

How do we identify ourselves on the appeal letter? Legally she is not the registered keeper (lease hire car as mentioned in OP). Ideally we want correspondence to come to us in future though and not miss letters due to them getting sent to the lease company surely?

'I am the keeper of the vehicle AB12CDE and I am appealing against your parking charge xxxxxxxxx .............'

While not the registered keeper, your partner is the day-to-day keeper. Your task is to drag UKCPS away from contacting the registered keeper (the hire company who might just pay this and charge for the cost, plus a tasty admin fee!).

If your partner is on reasonable terms with the hire company, she could contact them in writing to ask them that should UKCPS contact them, they are not to pay this charge, but respond to UKCPS as per the BVRLA (their trade association) guidance.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9b0iavad3aqeh28/BPA%20BVRLA%20MoU.pdf?dl=0

MoneySavingExpert12345

Thanks again, will begin drafting up a response to them now. & also contact the leasing company to ensure they do not go ahead and pay anything, if they are to be contacted.


Do you have any thoughts on the pictures from my post...........I.e. do you think there is a strong defence case for thinking it reasonable to park on that spot?


Thanks

Umkomaas

Do you have any thoughts on the pictures from my post...........I.e. do you think there is a strong defence case for thinking it reasonable to park on that spot?

https://imgh.us/Image1_60.jpg
(Main Image- Car was parked in between where audi and corsa are in image)

https://imgh.us/Image3_22.jpg
(Entrance signs at gate- car parked outside of this boundary)

You would need to argue that on the inadequacy of the warning signage. But in essence, you were not allowed to park there, as the sign in your picture shows. It is a 'forbidding sign' and the only remedy is in the hands of the landowner in the form of a claim for trespass.

That's the crux of the matter (do a search on 'forbidding signs), but it doesn't stop the likes of UKCPS pursuing you to attempt to extract money from you. Don't forget this is nothing much short of a scam, an unregulated, Wild West skimdustry, grasping millions from motorists every year via harassment and intimidation. Don't fall for it! Fight back!

It's going to take a judge to decide this - if UKCPS take it all the way. But if you deal with each stage to ensure it doesn't get to a default judgment against you, it probably won't get that far. But nothing is guaranteed in this game!