More civil enforcement woes

fineandandy

hi there
civil enforcement
looking for some advice regarding the above company and a charge notice received

after initially received a parking charge notice from them despite buying a ticket after getting some change from the local supermarket. the ticket was issued stating that driver had stayed to the time of 20:30 even though the parking restriction say free parking after 18:30

sent them a brief response which stated that

the parking charge notice was issued 5 days after the allotted time of 14 days to send such a notice according to the freedoms act 2012

that a ticket in possession covered the time they said was breached (there is the anomaly of arrival time and getting some change before buying the ticket 29 mins according to their entry time which was concerning )
and
thirdly that the amount being charged for this via an invoice of 100 pounds was in fact unfair and not within their duristiction
explained there would be no further contact until they provided further evidence etc. none was forthcoming and therefore didn't go down the popla route

my question is are these three points enough to fight a case which they are now taking to small claims in northampton and should a counter claim be filed for damages due to their pursuance of payments via a third party and sharing my details with that third party illegally

no driver was identified although it was outlined change was being sought to buy the ticket.

seen a recent template on the forum today from eits88 ( unable to publish link sorry)

that had many points i could include also namely excessive charges being added in an illegal tot up bases from debt recovery agency zzps and wright hassell who it was thought was a bogus set up due to the name.and ignored all correspondence from them.

could anyone help with a bit of guidance as despise the flagrant extortive methods this company have of doing so called ‘business’ and wish to fight them with as much strength as possible. they are issuing hundreds of these menacing demands at my local car park alone audits totally unjust.

many thanks in advance

Redx

the driver has been outed if you talked about YOUR TICKET etc

to many uses of the word I cause this admission

but too late now

the BPA CoP says 2 grace periods exist (clause #13) , one before the ticket purchase (not specified but assume 5 to 10 minutes) and OVER 10 minutes to leave at the end of the parking period

so thats typically 21 minutes maximum , although allowances can be made , but proving issues before and after the evant may be problemematic

the £100 issue wont wash since NOV 2015 after the BEAVIS case

by all means defend it on legal arguments (so look at all the dozens of other CEL court claim threads on here last month , and read their defences etc)

you may not like what is going on , we dont either , and we have been fighting them for several years, but its an unregulated industry and the government has done nothing about it , YET

fineandandy

Hi thanks for the quick response redx its very much appreciated.

didn't mention 'my' ticket in initial email contact with them only the purchase of 'a ticket' or 'the ticket' did mention they had issued an invoice for parking that was unfair or unjust and illegal. stated the three points
and was in possession of a ticket

there was a breach of terms and conditions in that parking payment finished at 18:30

the invoice was issued after the 14 days binding time as per statute of 2012

the amount charged was not justifiable


should i stick to these points or include
the lack of signatories on the correspondence from them and other contraventions ?

fineandandy

sorry i omitted to say now at the evidence gathering and provision stage for the county court business centre up in northampton

Redx

in post #1 you said "I had a ticket" and you also have just said "I was in possession of a ticket"

if you said that in your appeal etc then that infers that you were the driver

but hopefully you can argue that you have not named the driver, or inferred who was driving , and will not name the driver

according to what you have written above, you are at an evidence stage, meaning you have already written the defence and submitted it

if that is the case, copy and paste that same defence here, minus any references and personal info, so people know what was in it

if you have NOT submitted the initial defence yet , draft it and post it on here for critique (based on others from here)

either way , you really need to read post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread and also maybe 10 to 20 recent threads on other ongoing CEL court cases

fineandandy

ok thought that had been done that as have been reading for a while but will read some more

already sent an acknowledgement of service and now gathering evidence so wanted specific detail if at all possible, on the 15 days timing of sending an invoice/ticket and wether that is a clear contravention of the law so could build a case around that evidence and therefore any claim would be thrown out. it seems that is not the case is that correct?

Redx

if you have acknowledged service then you are at the defence stage and have 28 days (33 days from the date on the MCOL) to submit a defence

so if that is the case , you are at DEFENCE STAGE and should draft a defence

so you would not be at the evidence stage , that is later

read BARGEPOLE`s posts and make sure you understand what is done and when , including the timeline

if I understand your poor;y worded posts , you are DEFENCE stage, so read other recent ones and prepare your own , then post it for critique

also , if you have a copy of the original appeal, post that so people know if the driver was admitted or not, because from what you have written so far, I believe you have admitted or inferred who was driving

why does this matter ?

because a driver cannot hide behind POFA2012, only a keeper can , and too many people blab and say the wrong thing in these matters

POFA2012 is not mandatory and CEL fail POFA2012 anyway, but they do not have to follow POFA2012 if they do not want to, they havent and they dont

a KEEPER who has not revealed who was driving can use this to their advantrage in a defence

a DRIVER cannot

therefore a PPC will always want the drivers details wherever possible

if you do not understand this, you havent read enough or researched the topic enough

Coupon-mad

No evidence gets sent with a defence.

Or are you at the pre-hearing stage of Witness Statement and evidence? All stages are explained in the NEWBIES thread post #2 'Important, know what to do when' (or similar heading). There's a link there to 'bargepole' and to 'LoadsofChildren123' telling newbies the stages and what to do, and how.

fineandandy

Hi thanks for the related information, appreciative of your answers.
for clarity the defence stage (thinking the provision of any information for the courts requested from yourselves and used was evidence hence using that word) and will submit a defence to them this week.

Redx this is the only contact had with CE

+++++++++++++++++
letter to civil enforcement limited *******

Dear Sir or Madam,

Invoice number: **********

Vehicle registration number: *******

You issued me with an invoice on 1****/20** for parking in the ********* car park but I believe it was unfairly, unlawfully and illegally issued. I decline to name the driver, which is not required of me as the keeper of the vehicle and I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following reasons:

Firstly the alleged contravention did not occur.

Quite simply, your timings of an alleged breach in the contract to park was not as you outlined between ****/20** 17:** to ****20** 20:** as the car park is free of any charge for parking as of 18:30. A ticket was paid for up to the time of 18:3*

after buying groceries to enable change for the machine from the local shops of which I enclose a copy.!

PICTURE OF THE PARKING TICKET


Secondly the charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable

The amount you have charged for from the alleged time of arrival is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.

In this case, the £100 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of £1 for 20 minutes parking. I therefore feel the amount you have asked for is excessive and disproportionate.!

Thirdly your 'Notice to keeper' is incorrect.

The 'Notice to Keeper' failed to meet the obligations of Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012. Notice to Keeper arrived late well after 15 days following the alleged parking office.

If you choose to pursue me please be aware that I will not enter into any further communication until a popla appeal is sought and this will be the only correspondance you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in my letter.

Yours faithfully,

+++++++++++++++++++

hopefully any specific reference to a specific driver liability is not forthcoming.

Any advice relating to this first contact would be appreciated
thank you

couponmad having gone through the stages section and believe now in a position to submit a defence statement and would appreciate any input that can be offered.
redx has outlined some defence is problematic as the POFA2012 is inadequate as they seem to ignore it and therefore might be in the hands of the judiciary's subjective interpretation which is upsetting. should that still be applied in defence?
Also as luckily still in possession of a valid ticket , will that render the excessive charging period they have stated null and void? certainly the period after the cut off time as stated on the signage? are they just lumping the time of arrival in with looking for a space with the time leaving and have not put down anything to do with the fact that no charges are permissible after 18:30

Thanks again
in the process of preparing a defence statement and will post one for this evening or tomorrow

Redx

you mean the time THE DRIVER went in and the time THE DRIVER left !!!

you really need to get into the jargon and plead the 5th , also editing your posts accordingly

the initial challenge does not appear to have dobbed in the driver , so keep your terminology in that manner , best to assume that the words "ME , MYSELF and I" are banned , so any time they are used they have to be justified , or omitted

at no time have I indicated that POFA2012 is not relevant , because it is one of the points that is extremely relevant , especially because the claimant does not follow it

but had the driver been revealed, then POFA2012 would have had no relevance

so at this stage , there is no "evidence", leave that for much later down the track

you say you are at the initial defence stage , so yes draft a defence and post it here for critique

and the use of the word I is correct in the last sentence

I am in the process of preparing a defence statement and I will post one for this evening or tomorrow

nothing makes these issues "null and void" , but they are valid defence points and may be ruled on by a judge

fineandandy

Brilliant redx thank you.

The draft of the the defence will be up in due course for critique
thanks again