Labour U-Turn on the single market

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

adindas wrote: »

Why No deal is better than bad deal is the right decision ?

Of course not.

The best deal we'll ever get is the one we have today.

The worst deal we'll ever get is leaving with no deal which would be absolutely catastrophic to British people, businesses and tax revenue.

All other deals being discussed, whether that's staying in on worse terms, leaving the EU but joining the EEA/EFTA, etc, are better than the worst deal. But worse than the best deal which we have today.

But of course we did all try to warn you....

Rinoa

adindas wrote: »

Britain could only stay in EU on worse terms, Guy Verhofstadt says

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/britain-could-only-stay-eu-worse-terms-guy-105700796.html

Tells you everything you need to know about the EU.

It's a blessing that Leave won.

We now need to exit every aspect of the EU, without paying any ludicrous 'divorce bill', and be free of their interference forever.

adindas

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Of course not.

The best deal we'll ever get is the one we have today.

The worst deal we'll ever get is leaving with no deal which would be absolutely catastrophic to British people, businesses and tax revenue.

All other deals being discussed, whether that's staying in on worse terms, leaving the EU but joining the EEA/EFTA, etc, are better than the worst deal. But worse than the best deal which we have today.

But of course we did all try to warn you....

Given that Most people know what referendum results is. Most people know what the major parties have been saying .

Is it still relevant to discuss it now ?????

Also keep in mind those who agree to keep the option to walk away in this negotiation not necessary voted to leave the EU.

If you get the bad deal in your life in work contract, tenancy (say) are you going to accept that or walk away, if you have the option to walk away ??

Is it ok to pay EUR100bn euros ???

Negotiation is about showing what you could offer and what you would want. It is the essence of negotiations that you will need to open the option to walk away. Otherwise you are already in the hook. it is not a negotiation but it is accepting a demand.

If you loose something or damage you you will need to make sure that other party will also loose something or damage them to some degrees so they will reconsider their position.

The difference between your own negotiation with brexit negotiation is that you are using your own money while politicians are using taxpayer's money.

Herzlos

adindas wrote: »

Why No deal is better than bad deal is the right decision ?
Read this

Britain could only stay in EU on worse terms, Guy Verhofstadt says

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/britain-could-only-stay-eu-worse-terms-guy-105700796.html

In your own negotiation you are preparing to walk away if you believe bad for you. Why would politicians do that using the taxpayers money ??

Seems perfectly fair; we've trigger A50 to leave, and the deal we have now is the best we'll ever get. He's essentially saying that if we cancel A50 we can more or less just re-join minus some perks. At least he's not talking about making us pay the admin bill we've run up so far.

So our options now are (in descending order of good):
1. Cancel A50 and remain a full member of the EU, but loose our juicy rebates.
2. Come up with some other deal that still gives us access to stuff, but not as much as we have now or under #1.
3. Go WTO and hope for the best.

steampowered

adindas wrote: »

...

Your entire post boils down to criticising Sadiq Khan for not freezing the cost of a travel card.

As has been clearly pointed out to you, the Mayor does have the power to freeze travel cards. The manifesto was pretty clear, and the media coverage was very clear, that the pledge only covered TfL fares.

You can moan and complain and whine and call people "liars" all you want. But the Mayor still doesn't have the power to freeze the cost of travel cards. You might as well ask the Mayor for a trip to Jupiter while you're at it. If you have a problem with those increases you need to complain to central government, not to the Mayor.

Your suggestion of the Mayor introducing a new "TfL only" travelcard is an interesting idea. I like it. But it would make paying for London transport enormously complicated and sounds expensive to me (you would for example have to rebuild significant parts of places like Farringdon station where TfL trains and private trains coexist to separate the ticket barriers).

andrewf75

adindas wrote: »

It is the essence of negotiations that you will need to open the option to walk away. .

I agree. I think what has angered people is not necessarily the principle of being prepared to walk away, but the unnecessarily aggressive tone adopted ahead of the negotiations. She should have just said we’re looking to come to an agreement that suits everyone and left it at that. The best way to approach the EU would have been to make perfectly clear that we still want to be close partners after Brexit. As usual the Tories felt it was more important to appease hardline eurosceptics back home than to come across as willing to compromise and keep good relations.

When you’re negotiating and the other side holds all the cards you’re better off being nice than aggressive! We’re asking for favours, that is the reality.

adindas

steampowered wrote: »

Your entire post boils down to criticising Sadiq Khan for not freezing the cost of a travel card.

As has been clearly pointed out to you, the Mayor does have the power to freeze travel cards. The manifesto was pretty clear, and the media coverage was very clear, that the pledge only covered TfL fares.

You can moan and complain and whine and call people "liars" all you want. But the Mayor still doesn't have the power to freeze the cost of travel cards. You might as well ask the Mayor for a trip to Jupiter while you're at it. If you have a problem with those increases you need to complain to central government, not to the Mayor.

Your suggestion of the Mayor introducing a new "TfL only" travelcard is an interesting idea. I like it. But it would make paying for London transport enormously complicated and sounds expensive to me (you would for example have to rebuild significant parts of places like Farringdon station where TfL trains and private trains coexist to separate the ticket barriers).

I never say TFL is not within his control . I said he has the power to freeze the Travel card covering London zone 1-2 (Say).

I repeat that again what the London Mayor was saying:
“Sadiq Khan’s manifesto specifically said that Londoners won’t pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than they do today. No ifs no buts"

I am a Londoner and pay my council tax in London. Like many other Londoners; since his manifesto, we have seen our annual travel card (saved in Oystercard) increased last year and will keep increasing this year and many years to come !!!!!!!!!!!!!! .

He definitely does not implement that knowing how much it is going to cost them based on this and fin the way to get away to look good for people who do not know well or do not have impact on them. But he does know that freezing London public transport will attract a lot of voters. And he succeed ...

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/khan-accused-of-lying-over-failure-to-extend-tfl-fares-freeze-to-travelcards

A leaked document acquired by the MayorWatch blog via a FoI request showed that TfL provided costings for freezing all of its fares, only a few days after Khan was elected to City Hall.

Comment:
The statement above explains everything about his blatant lie

Your argument might swing the people who do not know the TFL well like me ant this people who knows TFL well.

You could always issue a special London travel card only to be used for the transport under the control of TFL ? How easy it is with contactless technology ??? Many people living in London zone 1,2 (say) traveling using travel card in London do not need access to Dft train, they just need TFL tube, bussess, Tfl Train, Overground which is fully under TFL control. People could easily see that many people who need the DFL train are not even living in London but outside London, just working in London. So they are not even Londoners who are paying their council tax in London.

hallmark

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

The best deal we'll ever get is the one we have today.

For trading with countries within the EU perhaps.

It's the worst deal we'll ever get for trading with every other country in the world. But I know those on the Remain side only like to talk about the upside of the Single Market & presumably hope most people don't understand or appreciate the substantial downside of EU tariffs.

steampowered

Oh, I see. So you are claiming that it is actually possible for the Mayor to freeze the cost of travelcards. Very interesting.

I located the blog your article appears to be referring to: http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/sadiq-admits-he-could-have-frozen-travelcard-prices/

This confirms that an element of travelcard cost is set by private train operators, under their agreement with the government. The suggestion in the article is that the Mayor could have effectively frozen the private element of a travelcard cost by paying off the train companies.

To my mind, that is not covered by the pledge. That is not freezing TfL fares. That would quite literally be paying off private train companies by paying (presumably forevermore) a portion of the cost of a private train fare from TfL's budget. In other words TfL fares would be used to subsidise private train fares. don't think that is a reasonable interpretation of Sadiq's pledge to freeze TfL fares.

You could always issue a special London travel card only to be used for the transport under the control of TFL ? How easy it is with contactless technology ???

Possibly quite expensive. You'd need new IT systems, and new ticket gates at stations to distinguish between TfL parts and private train parts. You'd also have the complexity of introducing yet another tier of ticketing to London transport. I also do not know whether this would even be lawful given that travelcards are regulated.

andrewf75

hallmark wrote: »

For trading with countries within the EU perhaps.

It's the worst deal we'll ever get for trading with every other country in the world. But I know those on the Remain side only like to talk about the upside of the Single Market & presumably hope most people don't understand or appreciate the substantial downside of EU tariffs.

And vice versa for many of the leave side…

Personally I try and see the pros and cons and obviously doing our own trade deals has advantages, but it is oversimplifying it to suggest that it makes trade easier with all non-EU countries. Many countries already have free trade deals with the EU. Where there are tariffs it is for a reason, mostly to stop our market being flooded with cheap !!!! undercutting domestic producers. This kind of free market globalisation is surely at the root of why people voted Brexit in the first place.