Please put me out of my misery...

waamo

mlang88 wrote: »

Thank you both - I felt I had read the Newbies thread from top to bottom, couldn't quite see how my case really fit in with the others as there seemed to be stronger grounds and I felt as though I was potentially relying on either good will, or some little known legal precedent I would never find.

My thinking was that after accepting my £2 (and on 10 previous occasions) does that not then become an agreement/contract that we have entered into seeing as though this was never 'punished'? Feels like a potential grey area?

Other cases on stronger grounds. Are you having a laugh? Seriously yours is one of the strongest cases I've seen on here.

They had no reason to ticket you, it was purely for the purpose of profit. They knew you had permission to park and did nothing to mitigate any cost. The "warden" could have come over to you and asked you about your permit (that they clearly knew about) to avoid this.

In small claims the claimant has a duty to claim as little as possible. They haven't tried avoiding this case which is a powerful defence point.

mlang88

Coupon-mad wrote: »

But this case isn't even about a fluttering ticket.

Your advice on this forum is suspect, please stick around and read & learn from posts if this area of MSE interests you but best not to post misleading stuff. Start slowly, we all did, years ago. You can learn loads here.

The OP here is saying the use of the car park changed but the signs were not obvious to bring that change of rules to anyone's attention and clearly they were still accepting P&D payments and letting a machine dish out tickets, therefore they allowed a variation of contract (P&D) to continue at this site, never mind the small signs which might have said it was now 'permits only'.

It it were really ''permits only'' then the machines would have been disabled/removed, and they were not.




On the contrary - it sounds to me that you have a solid case to defend it.



Yes indeed. We would agree.

Have you already submitted the defence you stated in post #1, and if so, when is your court date and what is your upcoming date to exchange evidence and Witness Statements with the other side (check the local court letter if you have one yet).

I haven't submitted a defence yet, a friend of mine who works at a law firm is taking a look at the proceedings sent over to me this morning. I must submit a defence by this Sunday (last minute - I realise). This thread has actually given me some encouragement, however. Next Steps...should I write some kind of defence and post? As I see that's what others have done in their posts.

nigelbb

OP please can you explain your case more fully? Is this a car park that was P&D but is now permits only but they have left the P&D machine (seems unlikely) or is this like some railways station car parks that are P&D but have spaces reserved for permits displayed by those with season tickets?

mlang88

nigelbb wrote: »

OP please can you explain your case more fully? Is this a car park that was P&D but is now permits only but they have left the P&D machine (seems unlikely) or is this like some railways station car parks that are P&D but have spaces reserved for permits displayed by those with season tickets?

Hi,

Yes I did a Google Street View just to confirm I hadn't completely got it wrong and it was a P&D formerly, and SIPS themselves confirmed to me over the phone that this was the case. I walked by yesterday and the machines are still there, and still accepting money as far as I can see (I didn't put money in again). Is this potentially something I can use in my defence in your opinion?

safarmuk

Yes I did a Google Street View just to confirm I hadn't completely got it wrong and it was a P&D formerly, and SIPS themselves confirmed to me over the phone that this was the case. I walked by yesterday and the machines are still there, and still accepting money as far as I can see (I didn't put money in again). Is this potentially something I can use in my defence in your opinion?

Probably, start structuring your defence in the manner of stating the facts of the incident for everyone on here to see and understand. The way I would summarise it so far is:
* It was a P&D car park that you used, paying £2/day to park in
* At some point (date TBC) it changed to "permits only" but this was not abundantly clear
* You continued to park there paying your £2/day into the P&D machine and displaying your ticket
* Your £2 was accepted
* At some point (date TBC) PCNs started to be issued as a result of the switch from P&D to permits

Is this a fair summary?

Questions:
1) Do you now have a permit to park there?
2) Do you know the TBC dates above?
3) Do you still have the P&D ticket that prove you paid on the date you received your PCN?
4) Where is this car park and what do you use it for (e.g. is this is a railway station car park)
5) When the car park switched from P&D to permit only did the PPC operating the car park change?

Actions:
1) Get dated photographs that the P&D machines are still present and working - they should be covered over with a bag and a notice if they are not to be used (this is what the council do when they switch areas from machines to mobile pay etc.)
2) Start drafting your defence based on the templates and your specific scenario and post here for the regulars to review
3) You can host the (redacted) claim from the PPC's solicitors by scanning and hosting the files on a file hosting site (e.g. tinypic etc) and then post a broken link here (e.g. hxxp instead of http - we will make it live) if that will be useful to explain what the claim is

mlang88

safarmuk wrote: »

Probably, start structuring your defence in the manner of stating the facts of the incident for everyone on here to see and understand. The way I would summarise it so far is:
* It was a P&D car park that you used, paying £2/day to park in
* At some point (date TBC) it changed to "permits only" but this was not abundantly clear
* You continued to park there paying your £2/day into the P&D machine and displaying your ticket
* Your £2 was accepted
* At some point (date TBC) PCNs started to be issued as a result of the switch from P&D to permits

Is this a fair summary?

Questions:
1) Do you now have a permit to park there?
2) Do you know the TBC dates above?
3) Do you still have the P&D ticket that prove you paid on the date you received your PCN?
4) Where is this car park and what do you use it for (e.g. is this is a railway station car park)
5) When the car park switched from P&D to permit only did the PPC operating the car park change?

Actions:
1) Get dated photographs that the P&D machines are still present and working - they should be covered over with a bag and a notice if they are not to be used (this is what the council do when they switch areas from machines to mobile pay etc.)
2) Start drafting your defence based on the templates and your specific scenario and post here for the regulars to review
3) You can host the (redacted) claim from the PPC's solicitors by scanning and hosting the files on a file hosting site (e.g. tinypic etc) and then post a broken link here (e.g. hxxp instead of http - we will make it live) if that will be useful to explain what the claim is

thanks for your clear response - i'll reply to your questions:

1) I haven't parked there since the Parking Charge Notice was issued - I just walk to work, it's safer
2) Searched online and can't see the date the P&D changed to permit only. I know that I parked there over summer and have online receipts, the date I was given the Parking Charge Notice was the 14/11/2016 and I have pictures of my ticket
3) I possibly still have the P&D ticket, but I certainly do have a picture of the ticket, and pictures of the ticket in my window, and the PCN too.
4) The car park is on Jersey Street in Manchester, it is in Ancoats which is mainly residential and some ex-industrial/commercial plots. Not considered city centre. I have not used it since the 14th of November.
5) No, the car park has always been operated by SIPS (in the time I have used it).


With regards to your actions - I will get the dated photographs and post the redacted claim this evening.

Thanks very much for all the support so far, feel as though I have got The Avengers on board now :j

mlang88

Update: Had a look at the car park, taken pictures of the P&D machine which is uncovered. Potentially a bump in the road - signage reads "Parking is permitted for: Vehicles fully displaying a valid pay and display ticket in the windscreen [won't type the rest out, just details positioning of P&D ticket".

It then says "In addition to the above..." in large font, and in smaller font below "Vehicles must fully display a valid parking permit in the windscreen or have a valid electronically registered permit".

Is this particularly ambiguous? I can post picture later together with redacted claim for. Will also post defence. Thanks.

Redx

it would appear they allow either option , so both permits by permit holders or pay and display tickets

waamo

If I was representing the ppc I wouldn't fancy explaining the wordage on that sign to a judge.

safarmuk

Update: Had a look at the car park, taken pictures of the P&D machine which is uncovered. Potentially a bump in the road - signage reads "Parking is permitted for: Vehicles fully displaying a valid pay and display ticket in the windscreen [won't type the rest out, just details positioning of P&D ticket".

It then says "In addition to the above..." in large font, and in smaller font below "Vehicles must fully display a valid parking permit in the windscreen or have a valid electronically registered permit".

Is this particularly ambiguous? I can post picture later together with redacted claim for. Will also post defence. Thanks.

You can post links to your pictures up here if you want, will make things easier. To do so host your pictures at an image hosting site, say tinypic, and then post a broken link (you may not be able to post links yet) here (e.g. h x x p://<web address>) and then one of us will make the link live.