Trying to help 86 yr old with BG debt

RichardWW

We're trying to help someone on pension credit and his partner living in a 1-bed housing association flat with no Central Heating and a £ 900 debt to BG, now obliged to pay £ 10 /week on a prepay metric meter.
Two quick questions - did any old 4 dial meters show kWh? Would the meter serial number tell me what the old meter was and what it was measuring? Our client is only using a gas cooker ( average use 4 kWh /day) but did have one gas fire ( now disconnected as unsafe). The imperial 4-dial credit meter showed 2151 units used over 2004 days - or roughly 33 kWh/day usage if the units measured were cubic feet. That meter was unread for several years so the client's £ 27/month payment should have been £ 40/month according to BG. But how likely is 33 kWh of gas use with just a cooker and one gas fire on for 2 hours in winter (according to the client) ? Seems too high. BG suggest applying to their Energy Trust to cancel the debt.

Anyone had similar issues or anomalies?

System

RichardWW wrote: »

We're trying to help someone on pension credit and his partner living in a 1-bed housing association flat with no Central Heating and a £ 900 debt to BG, now obliged to pay £ 10 /week on a prepay metric meter.
Two quick questions - did any old 4 dial meters show kWh? Would the meter serial number tell me what the old meter was and what it was measuring? Our client is only using a gas cooker ( average use 4 kWh /day) but did have one gas fire ( now disconnected as unsafe). The imperial 4-dial credit meter showed 2151 units used over 2004 days - or roughly 33 kWh/day usage if the units measured were cubic feet. That meter was unread for several years so the client's £ 27/month payment should have been £ 40/month according to BG. But how likely is 33 kWh of gas use with just a cooker and one gas fire on for 2 hours in winter (according to the client) ? Seems too high. BG suggest applying to their Energy Trust to cancel the debt.

Anyone had similar issues or anomalies?

Hi - have a look at this link:

https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/customer-services/meters/meter-reading

No gas meter shows kWhs used: the meter only records gas volume in cubic feet or metres. This has to be converted to kWhs by the supplier using, inter alia, the calorific value of the gas supplied by the National Grid. This varies day to day. It follows that I am not sure how you have assessed the gas used per day?

FWiW, 2151 units in Imperial equates broadly to 68097kWhs and if the meter is metric then 24062 kWhs.

You also need to take into account a few things:

1. Check the tariff - Standard Variable most likely - so the most expensive.

2. The daily standing charge.

3. The possibility that the 86 year old might be under estimating gas usage for heating. (I am a senior so I am allowed to suggest that)

4. What is it you are hoping to achieve? If BG has suggested applying to its Energy Trust, I would be inclined to move in that direction.

5. And finally, ask BG to install a smart meter to avoid any future bill shocks.

Edit : For clarity, you need to check whether the 2151 is actual units or 2151 * 100s of units as is the case with most imperial meters. This is why the conversion is so high.

RichardWW

That's a great link thanks. I've seen gas dial meters with "kWh" visible on the meter so useful to know that these only measure cubic feet or metres. The tariff was standard variable. The anomaly for me was using around 12,400 kWh of gas a year in a one bed flat using just a cooker and one gas fire, but we can't argue with the readings.

dogshome

All very, very sad, but your calculations appear correct

2151 meter units, each worth appx 31.5 Kwh, over 2004 days =67,756Kwh (33 Kwh a day, which at today's prices would cost appx £1.27 - £39.37 a month )

The BIG questions are:
Why no meter readings for over 5 years?
Were BG issueing bills for this whole period on an Esimated basis, and if so with the ever increasing energy prices over most of that time, why did they not raise the D/Debit payments ?
Did BG actually issue any bills, and/or, were any consecutive bills more than 12 months apart ?

I've never seen a Dial meter with only 4 little clock faces, doesn't mean they don't exist, but they have to be really ancient and past their use-by date

macman

Did he perhaps refuse access to meter readers over the 5 years? If not, is there a possibility that the back billing rule could apply here? One could argue that age or infirmity made it impossible for him to contact the supplier, submit reads, or check his bills? Nothing to lose by trying.

SwanJon

Another option is the British gas energy Trust. Might be quicker than finding out how the debt built up

RichardWW

The meter was outside. All I can see on the bill summary is cash payments made every month at the post office ( £ 27.12) since 2006. The first meter reading is in 2010, then roughly one a year till a flurry in 2014, followed by a bill for £ 1478.18 in Oct 2014 which they pay and then resume the 27.12 monthly cash payments.
The final reconciliation ( in May 2016 when the prepay meter is installed) says:
Total gas used £3175.27
VAT at 5% £ 158.76
Total gas including VAT £ 3334.03
Adjustments after VAT
Goodwill compensation - 4 Mar 13 £ 1629.77 ( he does not recall this)
Refund -21 Sep 15 £ 705.00 ( he remembers this)
Late payment charge -19 Feb 16 £ 13.00
Charge for debt visit - 14 Mar 16 £ 36
Your previous balance - £ 76.32
your payments - £ 4650.44
Total to pay £ 991.04

If I add their payments up between 2010 and 2016 they correspond well with the £ 3334 of gas ( 64624 kWh) BG say was used between actual readings ( but this does not include the standing charge). I'm guessing the "goodwill payment" is reconciling any underpayment for gas used between 2006 and 2010. All in all it seems a little harsh given the promptness and regularity of payments, the high consumption for just two appliances and no apparent change to the monthly amount - but English is not the client's first language.
The cost of gas was 4.73 p/kWh from 2014 but prior to that it was a tariff where the first x number of kWh were 8p/kWh and the next y number of kWh 4.4 p/kWh.
Thanks for all your comments. One wonders how many loyal BG customers face a similar scenario and still have no heating in winter. This is a complex domestic set up however with access to the flat difficult. Only the aggravation and confusion around the gas bill prompted a referral for help - we've yet to see the electricity or water bill.

footyguy

RichardWW wrote: »

We're trying to help someone on pension credit and his partner living in a 1-bed housing association flat with no Central Heating and a £ 900 debt to BG, now obliged to pay £ 10 /week on a prepay metric meter.
Two quick questions - did any old 4 dial meters show kWh? Would the meter serial number tell me what the old meter was and what it was measuring? Our client is only using a gas cooker ( average use 4 kWh /day) but did have one gas fire ( now disconnected as unsafe). The imperial 4-dial credit meter showed 2151 units used over 2004 days - or roughly 33 kWh/day usage if the units measured were cubic feet. That meter was unread for several years so the client's £ 27/month payment should have been £ 40/month according to BG. But how likely is 33 kWh of gas use with just a cooker and one gas fire on for 2 hours in winter (according to the client) ? Seems too high. BG suggest applying to their Energy Trust to cancel the debt.

Anyone had similar issues or anomalies?

With all due respect, could I suggest the 86 y.o approaches someone who knows a little more than you do, such as a debt charity. e.g. the CAB (other debt charities are available)

You refer to the individual as 'our client'. I sincerely hope you are not charging for the advice you have that you have had to resport to the internet to obtain :cool:

If the individual has now let matters get to the stage of an imposed PPM (where prices are higher anyway) then this really needs some professional help from those that know what they are doing.

RichardWW

Fair questions Footyguy and No we don't charge for advice and yes we do already work in partnership with all the advice agencies particularly CAB. This tenant was referred to us by one of them after they had no success with BG within the timeframe they had available. In a deprived area like ours every community organisation offering free support tends to be over-stretched so having a panel of online experts is a help. I've only spent 2 hours with this tenant so far, most of it on the phone to BG to try and establish if an obvious mistake had been made but unfortunately that does not seem to be the case. How I'd love to refer all our cases to "professionals who know what they are doing" but in our area the only independent energy advisers are volunteers. But hey, we do our best and try to keep learning.