PCN - Stockton Heath, Church Farm

Boygould_2

Hi,


I received a PCN this morning via my lease company (they will not pass on my details but have given authority for me to sort out the PCN) for an overstay (12 mins) at the above car park operated by ECP.


I have so far, told the lease company not to pay any amount in this matter and contacted Aldi (the shop the driver was visiting).


However, I have a couple of questions on how to move forward as I plan to appeal.


Firstly (and I think a key argument) the PCN is dated the 3/5/17 and the incident occurred on 20/4/17. Therefore my lease company did not receive notification until after 14 days (this car part uses ANPR). This, I think give me solid grounds for appeal according to what I understand?? See below


A Notice to Keeper can be served by ordinary post and the Protection of Freedoms Act requires that the Notice, to be valid, must be delivered either

1. (Where a notice to driver (parking ticket) has been served) Not earlier than 28 days after, nor more than 56 days after, the service of that notice to driver; or
2. (Where no notice to driver has been served (e.g ANPR is used)) Not later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked

A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales


Indeed the lease company did not receive until 15 days (stamped on the PCN)


Am I correct?? In my appeal should I just give this detail or should I include the template in blue in the newbie section for a BPA member?


Finally, is the template in black not valid for other associations (ie BPA) as it seems to be much more comprehensive.


Many thanks in advance.


Boygould

Redx

as its a lease car you should read the edna basher part of the NEWBIES sticky thread

Fruitcake

What date did the NTK arrive at the lease company? This is critical as the date of the alleged event is day zero, not day one.

Umkomaas

contacted Aldi (the shop the driver was visiting).

Aldi and ECP are not natural bedfellows, so I wouldn't be too optimistic about any help from them.

Boygould_2

Hi,
The NTK arrived at the lease company on the Friday 5th May . . . Incident occurred on Thursday 20th April.
I make that 15 days(?)


I have read the bit about lease cars and that implies to use that the keeper would need to send my details to ECP. My lease company has not done that and therefore remains liable . . . ? Have I go that right?


Thanks so far

Boygould_2

Here is a copy of my appeal. Hopefully I have not shot myself in the foot, but I did not want to wait until the 'discount' date was up.




I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.
Firstly I believe that ECP have not dispatched their duties correctly in that the notice was given after the period stipulated within PoFA (2012). I refer you specifically to Schedule 4, section 9 (4), (5) & (6).


In addition, I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.


Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.


I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.


Yours faithfully,

Coupon-mad

Boygould wrote: »

I have read the bit about lease cars and that implies to use that the keeper would need to send my details to ECP. My lease company has not done that and therefore remains liable . . . ? Have I go that right?

Kind of, but you need to take them out of the loop, in case they get another letter and pay it. But only appeal as 'hirer/lessee'.

The appeal you need to use is one written by Edna Basher as shown in the 'lease/hire' section of the NEWBIES thread.

Boygould_2

Hi,
Received a letter from ECP refusing my appeal (note the letter was exactly as I previously posted). My main claim was they had 14 days to serve notice and they actually did in 15 (13 days when posted + 2 days). According my understanding of the PoFA guidelines they have not served notice in time and therefore I am not liable. Can you confirm if I am correct please??
Anyway. ECP have not answered this part of my appeal in their letter so I am thinking that they have conveniently forgot!
Can you advise on my next steps?
many thanks

Umkomaas

Use your POPLA code to get this killed off.

Boygould_2

Fair enough & thanks.


No issue with following this up via POPLA & I will do. Just with so much info it sometimes help to be pointed in the right direction.


Is my assumption correct that the NTK was served too late!?
thanks

Edna_Basher

Boygould wrote: »

I have read the bit about lease cars and that implies to use that the keeper would need to send my details to ECP. My lease company has not done that and therefore remains liable . . . ? Have I go that right?

You’re right that in order to be sure of taking themselves out of the frame, the lease company should have provided ECP with your details as the vehicle’s “hirer”. They’ve taken a leap of faith in allowing you to challenge the original PCN effectively on their behalf.

You're perfectly entitled to describe yourself as the “keeper” when making your submission to POPLA. POFA has a very woolly definition of “keeper” as meaning the person by whom the vehicle is kept at the time the vehicle was parked, which in the case of a registered vehicle is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to be the registered keeper.

ECP’s non-compliance with Schedule 4 of POFA will be the first point in your POPLA submission. Although it would usually be easy for a vehicle’s hirer to demonstrate the non-compliance of a “Notice to Hirer”, you don’t have the luxury of having a Notice to Hirer to pull apart.

Nonetheless, you are still able to demonstrate at least two reasons why ECP’s PCN to the lease company did not comply with Schedule 4 of POFA.

1. Delivery outside of the relevant period specified under sub-paragraph 9 (5) (as you have already identified)

Sub-paragraph 9 (5) specifies that the relevant period for the delivery of the notice for the purposes of sub-paragraph 9 (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

According to the PCN, the specified period of parking ended on Thursday 20th April 2017. The relevant period is therefore the 14 day period from Friday 21st April 2017 to Thursday 4th May 2017 inclusive.

Sub-paragraph 9 (6) states that a notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

The “Letter Date” stated on the PCN is Wednesday 3rd May 2017 and in accordance with sub-paragraph 9 (6) is presumed to have been “given” on Friday 5th May 2017 (i.e. outside of the relevant period).

2. Non-compliance with sub-paragraph 9 (2) (f)

ECP’s PCN advises that “if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date Issued), the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and the current address of the driver, we have the right to recover the unpaid part of the parking charge from you”. *

* check the PCN to make sure that ECP is still using these words.

• The PCN states that the “Date Issued” is Thursday 20th April 2017.
• According to the PCN, the “date given”, being the second working day after the “Date Issued” is therefore Monday 24th April 2017.
• ECP is claiming the right to recover unpaid parking charges from the keeper 29 days after the “date given” i.e. Tuesday 23rd May 2017

Sub-paragraph 9 (2) (f) requires that the Notice to Keeper must warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given.....

• The PCN states that the “Letter Date” is Wednesday 3rd May 2017 and is therefore presumed as being “given” on Friday 5th May 2017.

• The right to recover unpaid parking charges from the keeper does not apply until 28 days beginning with the day after the “date given” i.e. the right would not apply until Saturday 3rd June 2017
• Thus the PCN claimed that ECP had the right to recover unpaid parking charges from the keeper 11 days earlier than was allowed under POFA.