Unmarried with children - no will

zagfles

securityguy wrote: »

"Shuffling money around between them" may require a rather subtle understanding of beneficial ownership, of course. You can't hold ISAs in joint names, for example.

ISAs can't be held on behalf of someone else, ie the person whose name it's in is the beneficial owner. So if someone paid money into their partner's ISA, that's a gift.

If you're an unmarried couple with sufficient assets that you are individually liable for IHT (assuming that the house sits outside the as joint tenants)

You don't seem to understand how IHT or probate works. A house owned as joint tenants does not "sit outside" liability for IHT. It counts as part of the estate for IHT purposes (even if it passes by survivorship rather than by will). Did you really think otherwise? It would be too easy an IHT dodge if a jointly owned house was exempt from IHT!

then you almost certainly buy cars and holiday out of income.

There will be plenty of couples who'll be above the IHT threshold and on an average or even low income due to the value of their house (which, as above, does count for IHT)

securityguy

zagfles wrote: »

Well they're going have problems applying for probate then, aren't they.

Getting married solves a lot of these problems.

And yet the world does not grind to a halt.

zagfles

securityguy wrote: »

And yet the world does not grind to a halt.

No but their probate application might

securityguy

zagfles wrote: »

ISAs can't be held on behalf of someone else, ie the person whose name it's in is the beneficial owner. So if someone paid money into their partner's ISA, that's a gift. You don't seem to understand how IHT or probate works. A house owned as joint tenants does not "sit outside" liability for IHT. It counts as part of the estate for IHT purposes (even if it passes by survivorship rather than by will). Did you really think otherwise? It would be too easy an IHT dodge if a jointly owned house was exempt from IHT!There will be plenty of couples who'll be above the IHT threshold and on an average or even low income due to the value of their house (which, as above, does count for IHT)

Yes, my understanding of IHT for joint tenancies is wrong. So that reinforces my overall point: no-one keeps the records you claim to be essential, and yet probate is nonetheless granted. The reason being that precise accounting of gifts is a vague and inaccurate art.

securityguy

zagfles wrote: »

No but their probate application might

Do you have any evidence that in the real world this problem arises in quantity?

Yorkshireman99

securityguy wrote: »

Yes, my understanding of IHT for joint tenancies is wrong. So that reinforces my overall point: no-one keeps the records you claim to be essential, and yet probate is nonetheless granted. The reason being that precise accounting of gifts is a vague and inaccurate art.

On what basis do you claim that nobody keeps accurate records? This is pure speculative assertion. When I have made a will the solicitor has always emphasised the need to do so. Three different firms by the way. I really is not that difficult.

zagfles

securityguy wrote: »

Yes, my understanding of IHT for joint tenancies is wrong. So that reinforces my overall point:

You're wrong so that enforces your point? :rotfl:

no-one keeps the records you claim to be essential, and yet probate is nonetheless granted. The reason being that precise accounting of gifts is a vague and inaccurate art.

IOW just fill in the probate/IHT forms with a load of guesses and hope you get away with it? That's your advice is it? Do you do the same with tax returns?

securityguy

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

On what basis do you claim that nobody keeps accurate records? This is pure speculative assertion. When I have made a will the solicitor has always emphasised the need to do so. Three different firms by the way. I really is not that difficult.

What proportion of people in their 30s and 40s have wills, would you say?

securityguy

zagfles wrote: »

You're wrong so that enforces your point? :rotfl:IOW just fill in the probate/IHT forms with a load of guesses and hope you get away with it? That's your advice is it? Do you do the same with tax returns?

I know my own tax affairs. I don't know my wife's financial affairs, at all. Were she to die, there would be a fair amount of guesswork. If your claim is that any significant proportion of the population have detailed financial records accessible to third parties, I have a bridge to sell you.

EachPenny

Nobody has to keep good financial records, they can live in disorganised chaotic bliss if they want.

But when the taxman - or their spouse's divorce solicitor - come knocking one day, they may later regret that lifestyle choice.