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VCS LTD PCN Appeal & Appeal Reply
James_B85
Posts: 6 Forumite
Hi, I am hoping for some help, views and more importantly any guidance on this issue I have.
A couple of weeks ago I received a NTD PCN for the vehicle that I am the registered hirer as I am on a PCH lease.
However, at the time I was not the driver and since then the driver has stated that they believed that they could park in that area as there were no signs clearly visible within the immediate vicinity so they parked there.
I went and visited the site of the contravention and I too noticed that there were no clear signage to inform any drivers of any parking restrictions within that area.
Having read many posts (especially the newbies post) on this forum for advice etc I formulated my appeal letter with many issues and questions that I wanted to seek clarification on see Appeal Letter below:
Dear Vehicle Control Service Limited (VPS Ltd)
RE: PCN No.
I would like you to know I (as the registered hirer of the vehicle) am not ignoring your letter suggesting my liability for a charge related to a parking infraction that you state took place on ....March 2017.
I wish to outline my current position in reference to your PCN.
Keepers Liability and POFA 2012
As stated in paragraph 13(2) of POFA 2012...
"The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—
(a) A statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
(b) A copy of the hire agreement; and
(c) A copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.
AND
Paragraph 14(2) and (3) of POFA 2012:
(2) The conditions are that —
(a) The creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;
(b) A period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed; and
(c) The vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.
(3) In sub-paragraph (2)(a) “the relevant period” is the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor.
- You were required to send this information to me (as Registered Hirer) within 21 days after receiving them from the lease/hire company (ALD Automotive).
- You were required to send these documents to me no later than 49 days after the NTK was sent to the hire company, which was 4th April 2017.
- Therefore I should have received these documents no later than 23rd May 2017.
- As this has not happened, you cannot use POFA to assume keeper liability. There is more than one driver of the vehicle which you placed a PCN on.
In Summary...
- I wish to confirm to you I was NOT the driver of the vehicle.
- I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter.
- As VPS Ltd has not complied with paragraphs 13 (2) and 14 (2) of POFA 2012, you cannot rely on the provisions of the Act and hold me liable as keeper.
- You will need to pursue this claim with the driver once you identify them.
Further Questions
To begin our discussions, as this is purely a claim under a purported contract, and you have no statutory footing to issue penalties, I wish to make you aware of the following details and require the specific information so that I can assess the validity of your claim:
1. Who is the party that contracted with VPS Ltd for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in Derby?
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner, please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that VPS Ltd have the authority of the landowner to both issue parking charges and legislate in your own name or on behalf of the landowner .
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? - Yes or no?
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? - Yes or no?
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please, provide a valid VAT invoice as you make no mention on VAT in any correspondence.
8. The signage to the site from a seated position in the vehicle as it enters the roadway is impossible to read and any specific rules regarding stopping on entrance being subject to a parking charge. Additionally where the vehicle was parked there is no signage within its vicinity that states that parking here is subject to a parking charge. Please provide a copy of the sign and photographic evidence of its location in relation to where the vehicle was parked that purportedly forms the basis of the contract entered into by the driver for my records.
9. I believe the location of where the vehicle was located is within the land boundaries of the
resident that resides at number 20 .... Lane and that in this instance I believe it invalidates your claim. If this is not the case can you please supply the relevant land registry and public highways documentation that clearly defines the land boundaries for my records.
Next Steps
When I receive a full reply to all these questions i will be in a position to be able to furnish you with a full response.
Alternatively you can cancel your charge, or I will happily wait to challenge this PCN as the registered hirer of the vehicle.
Note: I have contacted the landowner to strongly protest in writing the basis for this PCN.
Yours
I stated that I was not the driver at the time and I questioned how they contacted my lease company to ascertain my details and assumption that I was the driver of the vehicle during the time of the contravention.
I have had a reply to my appeal from them yesterday please see Appeal Reply below:
We refer to your appeal in respect of the above Charge Notice received on .
Having considered the points you have raised and reviewed our records, we are unable to accept your appeal. Our main reason(s) for this decision are as follows:
Please note that we operate to the International Parking Comunity's (IPC) Accredited Operator Scheme. As members of the IPC, it is necessary for us to evidence to the IPC that we have relevant authority to undertake enforcement activity at the site concerned and that our signs in situ are compliant in setting out the relevant terms and conditions
of use. We will only answer pertinent points at this stage.
The signs in proximity to your vehicle clearly informed motorists that the area in question is prohibited and not for parking. Therefore as your vehicle was found to be parked in this area, the PCN was issued correctly and the charge will stand. Photographic evidence which supports this can be found on myparkingcharge.co.uk
What you should do next - Either:
1. Pay the Charge Notice: In order to settle the Charge, the payment of £60 to reach us by 23/05/2017 or £100 to reach us by 06/06/2017 must be made. Failure to pay this charge within the stated times, may result in Debt Recovery Action being taken and further costs up to an additional £60 being incurred.
Payments can be made online at myparkingcharge.co.uk by following the links for "Pay Now", or over the phone by calling 0845 226 9138 by using a valid Credit or Debit Card. (If paying by Credit Card a surcharge of £1.00
will apply).
OR:
2. Appeal to the Independent Appeals Services (IAS):If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the IAS. In order to appeal, the IAS will need the following information (which is also contained in the subject header of this correspondence).
Notice Serial No:
Vehicle Registration Mark:
Appeals must be submitted to the IAS within 21 days of the date of this correspondence. Please visit theias.org for full details on how to submit an appeal online.
It is important you note that if you wish to appeal to the IAS and your appeal is unsuccessful, the discount offer will no longer apply and the full amount of £100 will be pursued. Please be aware that if a payment is made against the PCN prior to lodging an appeal with the IAS, or receiving adjudication from the IAS, and if it is accepted as Full and Final settlement of the PCN, any appeal to the IAS will automatically be dismissed.
It important I also highlight that no further appeals will be accepted at this office; any such appeal must be made to the IAS.
Please also note that further costs may be incurred should it be necessary for us to subsequently recover any outstanding charge using debt recovery and/or court action.
Yours sincerely,
Appeals Administration Team
CENTRAL PROCESSING OFFICE
They failed to clarify any of the questions I raised and have seemed to have slammed the door shut on any further correspondence by stating that I can not challenge this appeal decision with them any further and that I must take it up with the IAS or alternatively pay the fine?
Can anyone please share any advice or guidance regarding this? Shall I continue to challenge them? Should I inform them of the driver? Or should I press on further with my appeal?
Please note I have taken out any www or http links.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
A couple of weeks ago I received a NTD PCN for the vehicle that I am the registered hirer as I am on a PCH lease.
However, at the time I was not the driver and since then the driver has stated that they believed that they could park in that area as there were no signs clearly visible within the immediate vicinity so they parked there.
I went and visited the site of the contravention and I too noticed that there were no clear signage to inform any drivers of any parking restrictions within that area.
Having read many posts (especially the newbies post) on this forum for advice etc I formulated my appeal letter with many issues and questions that I wanted to seek clarification on see Appeal Letter below:
Dear Vehicle Control Service Limited (VPS Ltd)
RE: PCN No.
I would like you to know I (as the registered hirer of the vehicle) am not ignoring your letter suggesting my liability for a charge related to a parking infraction that you state took place on ....March 2017.
I wish to outline my current position in reference to your PCN.
Keepers Liability and POFA 2012
As stated in paragraph 13(2) of POFA 2012...
"The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—
(a) A statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
(b) A copy of the hire agreement; and
(c) A copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.
AND
Paragraph 14(2) and (3) of POFA 2012:
(2) The conditions are that —
(a) The creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;
(b) A period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed; and
(c) The vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.
(3) In sub-paragraph (2)(a) “the relevant period” is the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor.
- You were required to send this information to me (as Registered Hirer) within 21 days after receiving them from the lease/hire company (ALD Automotive).
- You were required to send these documents to me no later than 49 days after the NTK was sent to the hire company, which was 4th April 2017.
- Therefore I should have received these documents no later than 23rd May 2017.
- As this has not happened, you cannot use POFA to assume keeper liability. There is more than one driver of the vehicle which you placed a PCN on.
In Summary...
- I wish to confirm to you I was NOT the driver of the vehicle.
- I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter.
- As VPS Ltd has not complied with paragraphs 13 (2) and 14 (2) of POFA 2012, you cannot rely on the provisions of the Act and hold me liable as keeper.
- You will need to pursue this claim with the driver once you identify them.
Further Questions
To begin our discussions, as this is purely a claim under a purported contract, and you have no statutory footing to issue penalties, I wish to make you aware of the following details and require the specific information so that I can assess the validity of your claim:
1. Who is the party that contracted with VPS Ltd for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in Derby?
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner, please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that VPS Ltd have the authority of the landowner to both issue parking charges and legislate in your own name or on behalf of the landowner .
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? - Yes or no?
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? - Yes or no?
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please, provide a valid VAT invoice as you make no mention on VAT in any correspondence.
8. The signage to the site from a seated position in the vehicle as it enters the roadway is impossible to read and any specific rules regarding stopping on entrance being subject to a parking charge. Additionally where the vehicle was parked there is no signage within its vicinity that states that parking here is subject to a parking charge. Please provide a copy of the sign and photographic evidence of its location in relation to where the vehicle was parked that purportedly forms the basis of the contract entered into by the driver for my records.
9. I believe the location of where the vehicle was located is within the land boundaries of the
resident that resides at number 20 .... Lane and that in this instance I believe it invalidates your claim. If this is not the case can you please supply the relevant land registry and public highways documentation that clearly defines the land boundaries for my records.
Next Steps
When I receive a full reply to all these questions i will be in a position to be able to furnish you with a full response.
Alternatively you can cancel your charge, or I will happily wait to challenge this PCN as the registered hirer of the vehicle.
Note: I have contacted the landowner to strongly protest in writing the basis for this PCN.
Yours
I stated that I was not the driver at the time and I questioned how they contacted my lease company to ascertain my details and assumption that I was the driver of the vehicle during the time of the contravention.
I have had a reply to my appeal from them yesterday please see Appeal Reply below:
We refer to your appeal in respect of the above Charge Notice received on .
Having considered the points you have raised and reviewed our records, we are unable to accept your appeal. Our main reason(s) for this decision are as follows:
Please note that we operate to the International Parking Comunity's (IPC) Accredited Operator Scheme. As members of the IPC, it is necessary for us to evidence to the IPC that we have relevant authority to undertake enforcement activity at the site concerned and that our signs in situ are compliant in setting out the relevant terms and conditions
of use. We will only answer pertinent points at this stage.
The signs in proximity to your vehicle clearly informed motorists that the area in question is prohibited and not for parking. Therefore as your vehicle was found to be parked in this area, the PCN was issued correctly and the charge will stand. Photographic evidence which supports this can be found on myparkingcharge.co.uk
What you should do next - Either:
1. Pay the Charge Notice: In order to settle the Charge, the payment of £60 to reach us by 23/05/2017 or £100 to reach us by 06/06/2017 must be made. Failure to pay this charge within the stated times, may result in Debt Recovery Action being taken and further costs up to an additional £60 being incurred.
Payments can be made online at myparkingcharge.co.uk by following the links for "Pay Now", or over the phone by calling 0845 226 9138 by using a valid Credit or Debit Card. (If paying by Credit Card a surcharge of £1.00
will apply).
OR:
2. Appeal to the Independent Appeals Services (IAS):If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the IAS. In order to appeal, the IAS will need the following information (which is also contained in the subject header of this correspondence).
Notice Serial No:
Vehicle Registration Mark:
Appeals must be submitted to the IAS within 21 days of the date of this correspondence. Please visit theias.org for full details on how to submit an appeal online.
It is important you note that if you wish to appeal to the IAS and your appeal is unsuccessful, the discount offer will no longer apply and the full amount of £100 will be pursued. Please be aware that if a payment is made against the PCN prior to lodging an appeal with the IAS, or receiving adjudication from the IAS, and if it is accepted as Full and Final settlement of the PCN, any appeal to the IAS will automatically be dismissed.
It important I also highlight that no further appeals will be accepted at this office; any such appeal must be made to the IAS.
Please also note that further costs may be incurred should it be necessary for us to subsequently recover any outstanding charge using debt recovery and/or court action.
Yours sincerely,
Appeals Administration Team
CENTRAL PROCESSING OFFICE
They failed to clarify any of the questions I raised and have seemed to have slammed the door shut on any further correspondence by stating that I can not challenge this appeal decision with them any further and that I must take it up with the IAS or alternatively pay the fine?
Can anyone please share any advice or guidance regarding this? Shall I continue to challenge them? Should I inform them of the driver? Or should I press on further with my appeal?
Please note I have taken out any www or http links.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
0
Comments
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They failed to clarify any of the questions I raised and have seemed to have slammed the door shut on any further correspondence by stating that I can not challenge this appeal decision with them any further and that I must take it up with the IAS or alternatively pay the fine?
Can anyone please share any advice or guidance regarding this? Shall I continue to challenge them? Should I inform them of the driver? Or should I press on further with my appeal?
Please note I have taken out any www or http links.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
a fairly standard reply and you should have expected a rejection
the NEWBIES sticky thread tells you where you are up to with this and also gives guidance about the future too,
so its IGNORE unless you get an LBC or a court claim (MCOL)
there is no "fine" , merely an invoice , no private company can "fine" you
please read the NEWBIES sticky thread until you are up to speed
0 -
Seconded. Read the NEWBIES thread post #2, #3, and #4 which summarises the stage you are at and the stages to come. You won't be paying, nor trying the ('kangaroo court') IAS unless you have killer photos of no signs, something very rare to make the IAS wake up & look.
As hirer (not driver) you can't be held liable because VCS failed to follow para 13 and 14 of the POFA, nor did they issue a compliant Notice to Keeper within paras 1 - 9 of Schedule 4 either.However, at the time I was not the driver and since then the driver has stated that they believed that they could park in that area as there were no signs clearly visible within the immediate vicinity so they parked there.
I went and visited the site of the contravention and I too noticed that there were no clear signage to inform any drivers of any parking restrictions within that area.
Is it the same place as this thread about a Derby car park, case won by the OP due to lack of signs:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5504427
Did you get some signage photos (if local, do so!) in case they change them then sue you in a few months. They start claims using BW Legal but take heart from the fact we've never seen a BW Legal one lost, after getting defence and further advice here.
You have a defendable case but lack of signage photos will help you.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0
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