Possessory title

Chop

I'll try and cut a (very) long story short..........

Following a divorce, my mum bought a first floor flat in the early 80's. (I grew up there). In the 90's my grandmother bought the ground floor flat (same building) as she became unwell. She later died and left the flat to my mum. So, effecitively, my mum then owned the whole house.

My mum developed MS and so the grand floor flat was a godsend as, due to disability, she can now only use that flat. The flats were never converted into one property - family stay in the upstairs flat when we go to visit, it is also used as storage.

My mum plans to leave the 1st floor flat to my brother in her will -so he has offered to take over the paying of the council tax/bills etc They then decided he may as well take over ownership of the flat now.......which is where the problems begin:

No-one can find the deeds to the first floor flat. (The ground floor flat is fine, my mum has these.) We thought the deeds were with the building society, they're not. Nor are they with my mum or the solicitors or the land registry. We have exhausted all options to find them. It was a cash purchase so there's no mortgage record. The deeds are officially lost.

The land registry say the only way now is for my brother to apply for 'possessory title', it will then apparently take 12 years for the flat to be officially 'his'.

Does anyone know if this is right? How does my mum and/or my brother go about registering for possessory title? What do we do next? How much will it cost?

Would really appreciate any words of wisdom as it's causing my poor mum a great deal of stress as she is convinced someone will come and take the flat away from her.

Many thanks.

clutton_2

Are there any records of a purchase payment in your grandmothers papers to the previous owner - bank statements etc ? If they have been thrown away, the Executor of her will could ask the bank to provide these - although if they still hold cheques from so long ago i really dont know.

you can get your mum to go to a better solicitor to get him/her to draw up a "Statutory" Declaration which she will swear as true before a Solicitor to say that she has lived there for x years, and get other neighbours to do the same - this means your mum can start her claim for possessory title from the date she moved in - rather than now.

dont worry, no one can come and take the flat away from her - if you cannot prove she owns it - no one else can either !!!

Willow6

If the deeds have become lost and the property is unregistered then all you can do is make statutory declarations to that effect through a solicitor. This will then be submitted to Land Registry and considered there. It is extremely likely that only Possessory Title will be given as it is unusual (although not completely unheard of) for absolute title to be granted.

Once a posessory title is given it is correct that a 12 year period needs to pass before the title will be considered for upgrade, unless in this time, the lost deeds come to light.

You should probably seek legal advice through a solicitor or the CAB who can advise you on the best way forward.

Willow6
(yes, I work at Land Registry)

Suzy_M

May sound a silly question but are the solicitors involved really sure they do not not have the deeds.
Reason I ask is following the death of the last grandparent solictors swore blind they did not have the deeds despite being asked 3 times. Turns out they did have the deeds after all but as they had had them for so long (several, several years) they had been put in archive storage and they hadn't checked there. (And then the cheeky beggars actually itemised looking for the deeds on their bill - needless to say they weren't paid for this).
Ever since then the whole family always gets it in writing from whoever the deeds are lodged with confirming receipt of the deeds!
Anyway might be worth pushing them a little harder on this.

Chop

Many thanks for the replies so far.

Just to clarify, it is the deeds for the first floor flat that are missing, so nothing to do with my grandmother or her will.

My mum bought the flat in the 80's but the deeds are lost. She wants to give the flat to my brother now, so presumably she needs to make a statutory declaration and request title (either possessory or absolute) to be given to my brother?

Her biggest concern, horrible as it is, is that she will die before the 12 years needed for possessory title are up (she is 70 now, and not well).

We will have to consult a solicitor but fear how much that will cost as she has no money at all - but hopefully we can cobble enough together to pay the bill to sort this out.

Any more advice really appreciated.

matto

Can the leaseholder not help with some documentation?

clutton_2

i would talk to the land registry staff - they are exceptionally helpful folks willing to help members of the public at any time.

Chop

In response to Matto - there in no leaseholder. It is a converted property with only 2 flats and my mum owns both.

I will indeed contact the Land registry again, thanks! Fingers crossed I can get to the bottom of it.

clutton_2

even if the deeds cannot be found,surely there is correspondence that the solicitor wrote when the first floor flat was first purchased - have you asked the firm to dig into their archives for letters as well as deeds ? these may have some sway with the land registry. could the deeds be in a deedbox held by another ageing member of the family - i found some very interesting stuff when family members died.

there is also a thing called Good Title rather than Absolute Title and Possessary Title. You may be able to buy an insurance indemnity policy just in case anyone turns up to prove ownership, but with it being only 25 years ago an Insurance company may not want to take the risk.

matto

If there is no leaseholder and your mum is presumably the freeholder then I don't think there's a problem is there? If she wishes to grant your brother a lease on the flat then she will have to get an appropriate agreement drawn up by a solicitor.

I'm not quite sure how this situation has come about.

Willow6

Chop wrote: »

Her biggest concern, horrible as it is, is that she will die before the 12 years needed for possessory title are up (she is 70 now, and not well).

With reference to this point it is not an issue to worry about. She already has 12 years to obtain Posessory title and it is only a case of getting the statutory declarations done. If she is too ill to even get those done then her executors should still be able to make them on her behalf should she unfortunately pass away.

To clarify Possessory Title can be applied for NOW and the 12 years is only the period that future owners (whether this be a person aquiring the property under a will or a third party) must wait before the title can be upgraded to absolute. If Possessory Title was granted say on 1/1/2008 then if the property never changes hands or is sold another 50 times upgrade to absolute is a mere formality on 1/1/2020.