Temporary into permanent contract - procedures and timing

TOTAL

Alright guys. As stated before, I take what you are saying. This is where your imagination ends today, I don't blame you. The two situations - actually three - I am mentioning are not hearsay, but my own experiences, which constitute what brought me grades beyond minimum wage in the time your native graduates need to stop being GBPs.

One of the things that helped me is not the kind of advice you are serving to "grab job with two hands" or be grateful, but excelling in the area otherwise occupied by - don't take it as being mean - undereducated, unmotivated and poor-healthed domestic UK citizens who are stuck in the same mindset as the one you are promoting.

From my observations, companies - and even those state-governed, but not only - need in their staff self-learning skills which they are dampening by training in obedience. However, show your managers that apart from taking orders, not only can you also think and build your resources as needed - and your value skyrockets.

My main challenge was not in the dated, illogical and monstrously overgrown procedures that clutter department operation - because this can be dealt with within a month or two; not in autocratic managers who choose to have you do things like they grandparents did - because managers want to get things done, and the more swiftly and accurately the better, and they turn out to be happy to pay the price you ask, but in the envy of undermotivated, old-fashioned and robotised co-workers, once they noticed that what they had not even considered for a decade, could not only be done, but then also handsomely rewarded.

Once again, big thanks, but this thread is not meant for you. Why don't you start your own thread and glorify what's inside your box there.

***

A brief reminder for those of you who have started reading at this point, I am checking for people who think outside the obvious mindset, that without UK certificates and UK experience in EXACTLY the area that your are applying for, you are nothing and will nothing remain unless you get flushed towards the exit.

People with knowledge and experience in hr PLUS willingness to do a mental effort towards a designated goal - a fast career progression, please feel free to contribute.

xapprenticex

you seem to know what you're doing so go do it :money:

I was going to post a funny "You need a check-up from the neck-up" image but i cant find a good one

TOTAL

That's fine A good rhyme makes a wise thesis more convincing.
I'd think of more examples but I forget

Caroline_a

Another thread when (apparently) we have no idea what we're talking about because we're not telling the OP what he wants to hear. Love the fact that he's been in the UK for less time than I was in my last job, yet he knows all about employment in the UK!

Crack on, OP. According to your previous posts you've had 4 jobs in less than 3 years, all of which appear to have been contracts. It's not an impressive CV from where I'm sitting.

TOTAL

Aha, so it is a known issue here, your time-wasting. Good to know.

And I am seeing your previous post has been given a Thank you. Come on guys, is this facebook or what!? On what grounds could her most recent post be considered helpful by anyone? And in what - your dispute against me? Whoever granted her a Thank you for that is misusing the button. Don't you think, Caroline_a? And that explains the other, less obvious part of Caroline_a's stats

I am not saying I know more, but that what you guys are sharing intrusively is way too obvious to restate let alone ad nauseam, and that there are chances you are apparently not aware of (be reminded this thread is meant to gather input with regards to chances rather than environmental obstacles, though the social inertia apparent here is representative of majority the society - not only in UK). In this context, your argument referring to the number of years you have served to support why you think you are right - apart from its inherent fallacy ("older is better") only shows how you miss the point of why I started this thread - or rather you do not seem to care at all.

A jump from Assistant to Senior, total handover in one week, system revamp starting from week three, now mostly done - "no, in my jolly company, that would take ages!".
Yes, stay Caroline_a, these OPs not asking you to leave and therefore by providing the fresh input only once, you are not being a time-waster, over and over.

sangie595

TOTAL wrote: »

Aha, so it is a known issue here, this time wasting intrusion of yours. Good to know.

I am not saying I know more, but that what you guys are sharing intrusively is way too obvious to restate let alone ad nauseam, and that there are chances you are apparently not aware of (be reminded this thread is meant to gather input with regards to chances rather than environmental obstacles). In this context, your argument referring to the number of years you have served to support why you think you are right - apart from its inherent fallacy ("older is better") only shows how you miss the point of why I started this thread - or rather you do not seem to care at all.

A jump from Assistant to Senior, total handover in one week, system revamp starting from week three, now mostly done - "no, in my jolly company, that would take ages!".
Yes, stay Caroline_a, these OPs not asking you to leave and therefore by providing the fresh input only once, you are not being a time-waster, over and over.

Was this supposed to be English? I can see why you are in minimum wage jobs, if so. And by the way - if you despise your English colleagues so much (and boy, you really have a high opinion of yourself for someone who has reached the dizzy heights of Senior Admin Grunt) then perhaps you should take your over inflated opinions and go back to your home country, who no doubt need you more than we do. .I am sure that the "undereducated, unmotivated and poor-healthed domestic UK citizens" won't miss you a bit.

Successful entrepreneur, my a***....:rotfl:

hyubh

TOTAL wrote: »

I think that the most urging thing I need to do is to get back to the job hunt, in which case I need to come up with a good reason why I am searching for something if a permanent role is due.

Well, from what you say, 'due' seems a little strong. Even if it weren't, or a fortiori, you actually had a permanent position currently, that wouldn't mean make job hunting irrational - career progression through moving employers is the normal thing this day and age. For sure, that questions would still likely get asked asked at the interview stage... but then a ready answer should suffice.

Is it totally legitimate to play open cards with recruiters?

Of course! It's in the recruiter's interests to fulfil the vacant role. Why will they care if fulling it will be to the loss of another company...?

What to communicate to my manager when I am going to be away from work for half a day with regards to job interviews?

A white lie ('I need the day off for the boiler being repaired') or just something entirely non-committal will do.

Given that the role is going to be made available to other staff, I think I have every right to do my search without hesitation?

You have a 'right' to do so even if you were in a ringfence of one - you aren't an indentured servant.

Is it a normal practice for a company to do internal recruitment in such a case

Possibly, for a larger company or public sector. Of course, by having to make a role competitive, it may well end up that an originally unanticipated person gets to be selected.

or should I consider it as a demonstration that they feel they have the upper hand?

You're a temp - of course they have they upper hand ;-)

I am checking because numerous staff have made it totally plain that I have done even much more than was hoped for; what I did was I restructured the internal processes, so that everything is running smoothly, flawlessly and I am actually doing many specialised tasks that are not my responsibility

Excellent! Although, be warned - that may not get you much in the particular organisation that was/is done. However, if you broaden your horizons a little bit - I may be wrong, but your frequent talk of grade structures suggests experience solely in larger companies and/or public sector - it should hopefully put you in excellent stead she applying for roles in more specialist companies.

In an ideal world, unless the company is in a slump, the new role should offer me better money (they are dismissing a part-time employee, they are paying more to the agency) and higher responsibilities.

Not sure how that follows? Permanent employees have costs that temps from an agency don't. And if a company 'is in a slump', they probably aren't hiring in the first place.

How can I tell the business and financial condition of my employer?

Companies House would be a start - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk

If a company pays an agency a certain amount for me, what would be max they would be able (not necessarily willing, but at least able) to pay to me?

Not a question with an objective answer. How much are you and your skills perceived as worth to them...?

If I am selected, 0 being my grade starting salary and 1 being one grade higher, what is the max that can be negotiated as a starting salary? Are there any rules?

How seriously do they take their grading structure? In the public sector, for example, a job will usually be advertised at the only grade that the successful applicant will get. (Which isn't irrational - why have a grading structure if it only very loosely helps budgeting decisions such as that to permanently hire for a given role in the first place?)

What is the cycle of recruitment in today's companies? Assuming they would want me to start permanent in September, when would the role be actually forged?

There's no generic answer to that, even in the public sector (or at least, in the public sector I'm personally familiar with [local government]).

TOTAL wrote: »

I do not agree, though, that companies have the upper hand in that until a contract is signed

Hmm, of course they do, unless the potential employee is one that several potential employers are desperate to have...

both parties are free to leave the negotiation. Just as you may not be employed, you may look for something else.

You need to sell you labour to eat though, don't you...

Long term, it is not about how quickly you become permanent, but how well you choose the company you bind your fate with

You don't 'bind your fate' by signing an employment contract - you get relative security, which you are free to abandon later, on fairly easily-achieved terms (e.g. a four week notice).

Granted, companies have their experts with lots of overlapping skills, however, their roles are more or less fixed, and you don't make your higher ranked staff do trivial tasks of a different department without affecting how they will believe the quality of their work is perceived.

A pretty 'big company' view of things I think...

TOTAL

Hi hyubh

Many thanks for taking the time to answer.

Indeed, "due" is a stretch in this case. My reasoning is that it were permanent, it would feel more difficult to justify a job change after, say, half a year, whereas a temporary contract is a natural thing to end at any time. That is why I don't plunge into the present opportunity, but was to weigh it well against other alternatives.

“
Of course! It's in the recruiter's interests to fulfil the vacant role. Why will they care if fulling it will be to the loss of another company...?”

Actually yes - and not only recruiter's, but also the company's. What made me think otherwise was the impressions during the interviews which felt unsuccessful from the very beginning, but on second thought, there have been several ones which flowed undisturbed by disturbing questions.

“
A white lie ('I need the day off for the boiler being repaired') or just something entirely non-committal will do.

”
OK.

“Is it a normal practice for a company to do internal recruitment in such a case
?
Possibly, for a larger company or public sector. Of course, by having to make a role competitive, it may well end up that an originally unanticipated person gets to be selected.”

This casts a different light on what I have been hearing that the skillset and attitude is exactly what the department needs. Might feel to them this way, because my predecessor was not getting there, but once the processes get streamlined - and I am 75% through - this could be done by an average skilled person. The hope for me is that the initiative that the team is realising will progress outside the county towards national presence; this is when they team would still need a pioneer (plus a apprentice) rather than two procedure driven workers.
In any case, a decent plan B will help strengthen my position.
Time for the next phase of job hunt. I was concerned about interpretations made by recruiters but this is a problem if they are looking for someone other anyway.

“You're a temp - of course they have they upper hand ;-)”

Call it upper hand then. If it is about who has the last word in and angry exchange, yes. Otherwise, it is down to interdepence - and who can be replaced more easily.

“Excellent! Although, be warned - that may not get you much in the particular organisation that was/is done.!However, if you broaden your horizons a little bit - I may be wrong, but your frequent talk of grade structures suggests experience solely in larger companies and/or public sector - it should hopefully put you in excellent stead she applying for roles in more specialist companies.”

I am not sure of the meaning of the first part. Can you please explain what you mean by saying 'that may not get me much done in the particular organisation that is/was done'?

Otherwise, you are spot on - I have mainly worked for larger and public sector companies. I will take a look at other options; might need to move to a busier part of the UK, besides.

“Permanent employees have costs that temps from an agency don't. And if a company 'is in a slump', they probably aren't hiring in the first place.”

What are those costs? Contrary to what was suggested by someone before, as a temporary worker, I have not been granted any overtime bonus (clearly stated on the payslip: max 37.5 per week), and I would stay overtime if truly needed. What would be extra costs if I went permanent?

Let's make it plain: the role the company are going to hire for is one that replaces my permanent predecessor. A company in a slump still needs to get stuff done. Do you maintain the role would not be permanent if they were in a slump?

I will definitely check in Company House

“You don't 'bind your fate' by signing an employment contract - you get relative security, which you are free to abandon later, on fairly easily-achieved terms (e.g. a four week notice).
”
OK.

“A pretty 'big company' view of things I think...”
Ah, yes. This was not the case in smaller companies.

getmore4less

I have not read it all but the first post has some major overthinking.

2 months into a 3 month contract

That needs to be renewed first.

It is time to get the agency on the case to get it extended or find a new contract.

Forget the permanent until it exists.
They will be paying a load of money to the agency if you get it so that could have them prefer someone else unless you are very good.

Caroline_a

Re agency costs. I have worked in companies where with very few exceptions all admin staff are temporary workers. Usually this is down to the headcount - I understand that temp staff do not count in headcount figures so it looks on the books as if you have a lot fewer staff to run a facility! So often it becomes an advantage - particularly for large multi-nationals - to have temp staff who are easily replaced or got rid of in any downturn in business. I've seen this happen many times.