Paying for training costs if I resign - Vague contract wording

HWG

Hi all,
I’ve just completed an expensive training course at work, and I’m looking to leave shortly (not a good work environment – long story). There’s a vague clause in my contract about paying for courses – I’m wondering how enforceable it is, and what would happen if they attempted to use it?

Under the “deductions from salary” section that contains info about how my regular pension payments, cycle to work, season ticket etc will be deducted from my monthly pay, it includes a mention of “training costs”.

I interpret this as being any pre-agreed regular payments, rather than retrospectively paying if I leave. There is no mention of time limits or being “tied in” for any period after training.
Prior to the course starting, my manager mentioned that he’d investigate if I’d have to sign something about being liable for the costs, but I never heard anything back.

I suspect (hope?) that the clause under the deductions from salary is too vague to enforce. My questions are:
1. Does anyone have any experience of this situation? What are the chances of success?
2. If my employer took the position that I was liable, what would happen? I’m concerned that even if they ultimately failed, I’d be drawn into a costly and unpleasant legal battle.

jobbingmusician

Hmm. So you are asking for comments on a 'vague wording' without telling us what it is? Not possible as far as I can see, although I appreciate why you might not want to post the exact wording.

There are lots of experiences of deductions from training on here - might be worth doing a search.

HWG

Fair play. So the wording is (abridged for clarity):

"Deductions from salary / withholding of final salary
You authorise [Employer's name] to deduct from your salary or withhold from your salary / final salary any amounts which you owe us from time to time (including but not limited to salary over-payments, season ticket loans...training costs..."

My understanding is that it's unlikely they could arbitrarily deem that I owe them for the training unless it was agreed explicitly, with time limits and repayment criteria.

Undervalued

Legally, for training cost to be recoverable, there needs to be a specific agreement in place. Even then the amount reclaimed needs to be proportionate and reasonable.

That said, the employer has the whip hand as they can just deduct the amount they consider is due from your final salary (right down to zero pay) leaving you to claim against them if they are in the wrong!

daytona0

Morally, it is a bit of a douchebag move to leave almost immediately after being put through an expensive training course....

They would have put you though that because they expected to utilize your new skills within the workplace.

I think it would be a bit of a shame if the wording is too vague to enforce, but alas you may be correct here and not be liable to pay for anything.

Unfortunately for you the employer holds all of the cards and they WILL make a deduction if they feel that they are entitled to do so... They won't sit down and logically debate the legality of the wording in your contract, this is something which you will probably have to take them to court over.

So my advice would be to leave and see what happens. If they don't make a deduction then great! If they do then deal with it then!

pinkshoes

Did you ask to do the training course or did they insist you did it?

chaotic_j

I had an expensive course paid for me and an agreement in place to say if I left within a certain amount of time I'd pay something like 50% back..

I never mentioned it before I left to a single person and they never deducted or asked for anything back..

TBagpuss

The wording says that you authorise them to deduct sums you owe them. I think that probably, for them to enforce, they would have to show that you owed them the training costs, i.e. that you had (at the least) been specifically advised, before starting the course, that the costs would be repayable.

That said, it would be sensible for you to check you office manual / handbook if there is one, to see whether there is a more detailed policy about training costs.

Undervalued

TBagpuss wrote: »

The wording says that you authorise them to deduct sums you owe them. I think that probably, for them to enforce, they would have to show that you owed them the training costs, i.e. that you had (at the least) been specifically advised, before starting the course, that the costs would be repayable.

That said, it would be sensible for you to check you office manual / handbook if there is one, to see whether there is a more detailed policy about training costs.

A policy alone is not sufficient for this purpose. Unusually the law is quite specific and requires and actual agreement. This can form part of the contract of employment, provided that the employee has actually signed it. For virtually all other purposes just turning up, working and getting paid is sufficient to establish a contract even if it is never signed. However, for this purpose it is unlikely to be sufficient.

That said, as mentioned earlier, the problem is that the employer will most likely make the deduction leaving the OP to battle to get it back if they feel they have a case. In doing so they can kiss goodbye to any decent reference!

paddyrg

Training costs employers double - they pay for the course, for your travel, hotel, meals, and your salary and associated costs like holiday entitlement at the same time, accounting overhead, all whilst leaving the ship floor understaffed whilst you go to learn the new skill. They may be a bit prissy about you leaving so soon.

What's a reasonable length of time to discount the training over? 12-24 months would be my guess, so maybe you could expect/argue for it to be recovered proportionally. Hopefully they won't try to recover your time and expenses also and may just focus on the headline cost - so in effect you'd have a well subsidised course.

jobbingmusician

HWG wrote: »

Fair play. So the wording is (abridged for clarity):

"Deductions from salary / withholding of final salary
You authorise [Employer's name] to deduct from your salary or withhold from your salary / final salary any amounts which you owe us from time to time (including but not limited to salary over-payments, season ticket loans...training costs..."

My understanding is that it's unlikely they could arbitrarily deem that I owe them for the training unless it was agreed explicitly, with time limits and repayment criteria.

I'm not an expert, but I agree 100% with this.

'Any provision for repayment or deduction of training costs from wages must comply with the wage protection arrangements in the Employment Rights Act 1996. Such terms should be in writing. If they are not, the employer will need to be able to show an oral or implied agreement to make the deduction or repayment, or show prior written consent.

The burden of proof lies with employers, so firms should aim to use written agreements. These are interpreted strictly by the courts. An agreement requiring repayment will not authorise an employer to make a deduction from the employee’s wages, while one providing for deductions from wages does not give the employer the option to claim for repayment of any excess payments for training. Employers may find it useful to use phrases such as “deduct and/or require repayment” when drawing up contracts.'

The above quote is from http://www2.cipd.co.uk/pm/peoplemanagement/b/weblog/archive/2013/01/29/3581a-1999-06.aspx