Planning rules for car park signs

mowkid

I have been using the valuable advice and experiences from this forum to help my wife's carer with a charge from Excel on another thread. Pre PoFA.
However in the course of my investigations I came across the Fleetwood ASDA thread where I understand that Parking Eye were obliged to cease operations pending planning permission being granted.
There is a particularly nasty example in my town where a car park for years had been an eight to six pay park for the adjacent shops. This was taken over by Smart and overnight bvecame 24 hours. There is a council car park next to it with a driveway through a wall to the Smart operated one so anyone not in the know gets caught out. Some aquaintances of mine have been had.
I decided to check with my local council if any of the PPC run parks in town had planning and none do.
However Smart put in a planning application two weeks after my FoI communication (fishy or what)
I have had a long series of dialogue with my local council but they insist that they have no powers to get the Smart signs removed because this would predjudice the planning application.
Just how can we beat these people? I was hoping to get some sort of local effort to demand money back by people who had already paid up.

Northlakes

A lot depends on the planning authority. Some regard advertisement consent as a given and take little action whilst others are far stricter.
The key to your problem is whether there is ample signage on the entrance to the Smart ppc bit. If there isn't then this is excellent appeal point to POPLA.
Lack of advertisement consent for signage will not help in an appeal unfortunately.

The_Deep

If the Council refuse to act make a complaint to the Ombudsman that they are colluding with the PPC to defraud. Copy in writing to their Trading Standards Department. It may not win at Popla but it will give them cause to think, and cost them money to fight off.

mowkid

I have now had a bit closer dialogue with the chief of services at my local council. I'm pretty sure he would have the signs removed pending the planning committee meeting but he says there is nothing in the act that allows it . As he says, if it was a house illegally built he could have it demolished but there seems to be a glaring gap in the advertising signs act.
I may go to my MP but it's Alan Duncan and he's more interested in flitting round the world giving our money away.

Marktheshark

I would ask him to actually sit down and read the town and country planning act and then ask him to comment of he has the power to force the removal of the advertising sings.
Remind him the penalty for misconduct in public office is up to life in prison and as a member of the public you can lay a summons at the court for £29.

keepitlegal

It's advertising permission that is required, all the information you need is here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/783/pdfs/uksi_20070783_en.pdf
Your local planning department may say that permission is not required (mine did) but if you persist you can get them to insist the landowner makes an application.

mowkid

I am still on this case and have now got a local councillor on my side.
From time to time I have seen allowable dimensions for signs on this forum but can't for the life of me find a government publication that specifies.
Anyone with a quick pointer please?

Timothea

I recently received an email from a London Borough of Barnet Planning Officer who explained that advertising permission for signage is NOT required providing that the signs:

• are in relation to the land or building on which they are displayed; and
• do not exceed 0.3 square metre in area; and
• are not located higher than 4.6 metres above ground level; and
• are not illuminated.

Such signage [FONT=&quot]benefits from deemed consent granted under the Town and Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 2007.
[/FONT]

Loadsofchildren123

It's a criminal offence to breach the legislation.

Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements)(England) Regulations 2007 (as amended). Regulation 30 makes it a criminal offence to display advertisements without the relevant consent. There are exceptions as Timothea indicates, off the top of my head I don't know what they are, but I do remember they are easy to find on a google search.

If there was a contract between the PPC and the driver, it was illegal at its formation because it was incapable of being created without an illegal act (the erection of the un-consented signs which the PPC relies on as having made a contractual offer).

Where a contract is illegal when formed, neither party will acquire rights under it, regardless of whether or not there was an intention to break the law; the contract will be void and treated as if it had never been entered into. As such, the asserted contract cannot be enforced

This allows Defendants to run a defence of Ex dolomalo non oritur actio

Loadsofchildren123

The legislation is slightly different in Wales - but it's still a criminal offence. I assume you are England but if anyone wants the Welsh law let me know.

mowkid

Timothea wrote: »

I recently received an email from a London Borough of Barnet Planning Officer who explained that advertising permission for signage is NOT required providing all the following conditions are met:

1. It is erected on the bulding or land to which it relates;
2. It is no more the 0.3 sq.m. in area;
3. It is no higher than ?.? m. above the ground;
4. It is not illuminated.

This is from memory. I will check the height and other details and update this post later.

Thanks for your reply but as I recall these criteris apply where the site conforms to the conditions for deemed consent as opposed to express consent.
Where in the Tand CPA are these dimensions quoted?