PCN/NTK Dilemma

Zeppdad

Hello, as a newbie who's read the 'Newbies! Need help with a private parking ticket? Read this before posting!!' thread, I have the following dilemma.....(apologies in advance for the long read!)

my wife's car has been parking in a very poorly marked bay for 6 months (September 16-March 17) in a car park in Wakefield operated by Vehicle Control Services / Excel Parking. On 15 March, there was a 'MyParkingCharge.co.uk' card attached to the window.

On 25 March, my wife received two NTK's through the post from VCS, for 'Contravention Reason: 86 Parked beyond the bay markings' dated 13 March and 15 March. The photographic evidence on MyParkingCharge.co.uk shows the PCN attached on the 13 March but it was not there when returning to the vehicle that day, hence also being parked in the same bay on the 15 March (which obviously wouldn’t have happened if the ticket on the 13th March had been attached upon return).

My wife’s car first parked in this poorly marked bay back in September 2016 and has done so on numerous occasions, after the advice of an Excel employee (he said he was the ‘assistant area manager’) who, when asked if it was Ok to park in the space said ‘you’re fine parked there’. Hence, quite miffed at TWO NTKs.

Thereafter, bumped into another Excel employee a few days after receiving the NTK’s who stated that ‘I wouldn’t have ticketed you there but we’ve got some new staff who are very over-enthusiastic and ticketing everything and anything. We only have to ticket two a day and our job is done’.

I’ve subsequently read the thread 'Newbies! Need help with a private parking ticket? Read this before posting!!' and checked that VCS are an AOC member. They are registered with both IPC and BPA- though on their NTK, they state only membership to IPC and that any unsuccessful appeal will be dealt with by the IAS (Independent Appeal Service). My understanding is that the BPA offers a much more rigorous appeals process.

So, having read all this, I have the following questions…if any can offer some much appreciated insight;

1. Which of the two templates letters (to either BPA or IPC) should I use? Both seem as though they’re not going to cover our situation or mitigating circumstances. Admittedly, I may just be confused about this!

2. Considering that the PCN’s were issued on 13 & 15 March, and NTK’s issued on 21 March, have they followed the rule of law in obtaining Owner information from DVLA in such a short space of time?

3. What’s our next best move?

My wife has until 12 April to appeal

Thanks so much for any comments, thoughts or guidance?

Coupon-mad

My wife’s car first parked in this poorly marked bay back in September 2016 and has done so on numerous occasions, after the advice of an Excel employee (he said he was the ‘assistant area manager’) who, when asked if it was Ok to park in the space said ‘you’re fine parked there’.

Never believe a private parking goon! He probably meant 'you're fined parked there'!

1. Which of the two templates letters (to either BPA or IPC) should I use? Both seem as though they’re not going to cover our situation or mitigating circumstances.

You should use the IPC one because they are only an AOS member of the IPC (they are allowed to retain corporate membership of the other Trade Body too).


2. Considering that the PCN’s were issued on 13 & 15 March, and NTK’s issued on 21 March, have they followed the rule of law in obtaining Owner information from DVLA in such a short space of time?
You will only know if the keeper asks the DVLA, like this:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71879174#Comment_71879174


Do both at the same time. The keeper should expect to receive a court claim in the end - but we help people win these!

Do you know what I would fish for in the meantime. as evidence in your favour? Try to get a phone video of the Excel/VCS 'employee' (do they have Excel livery/uniform and NOT VCS uniform?) and ask them politely whether a driver would get a PCN for parking 'in that bay there' and record the answer, and press for a repeat of what was said before.

Hearsay is not helpful to the keeper in court, but a video would be, and while you are there, video the space and the ambiguous markings and lack of adjacent signage.

Zeppdad

Thanks so much for your reply Coupon-mad. You rock!

In answer to your comments/questions (and further questions!)...

Excel/VCS 'employee' (do they have Excel livery/uniform and NOT VCS uniform?)

Yes, he was wearing an Excel jumper (blue with excel logo over left breats) and a blue waterproof overcoat with silver reflective stripes. I have a photo of the van he was driving with VRN but no company branding.

I'll fish away if I see him again but haven't seen him since our conversation.

I've re-re-read the newbies page and clicked onto the BMPA's Insight on VCS; which recommends (in the 'Should I appeal at all' section) 'Our recommendation for this operator: Ignore all but court papers or solicitors letters. If you get questionable "legal" letters then take advice from the forums.'

BUT also suggests 'Every company must offer an appeals service so that "mitigation" can be used to cancel tickets that should not have been issued in the first place. Mitigation is not valid for subsequent stages so also add in issues like unclear or confusing signs in your appeal too. At this stage it we recommend you demand a copy of the authorisation they have for the site too.'

As you stated, hearsay isn't helpful, should photo proof of the excel employee's van be used as mitigating circumstances?

Arghhhh! What to do? Ignore and fight? Appeal and fight?

Thanks so much for your guidance

Umkomaas

You have little chance of winning an appeal (no matter what mitigating circumstances) with either VCS or the IAS. NEWBIES sticky section 1 covers the initial appeal to VCS. There's a ready made template for you to copy and paste - use it, to show you've engaged in the PPC's appeals process, but don't expect any positive result.

Section 3 deals with second stage appeal to the IAS. Read the cons and cons of appealing to the IAS.

So it's the initial appeal, then ignore anything further that comes your way other than court papers. Come back if you receive these as help is available in formulating a defence.

Zeppdad

Thanks Umkomaas, like Coupon-mad, you rock!

Zeppdad

So....no surprises....I've not won appeal with VCN nor the first round of appeal with IAS, whove sent a 'Prima Facie Case' reply from VCN. Quite detailed it was too. think they have made a couple of errors in their PFC response and these could, I suppose, be argued as technicalities.

I've been given the option to either 'Submit a response' to their Prima Facie or send straight to adjudicator. I have until this wednesday 7 June to respond.

Is it worth wasting any time on a response? There are a couple of points (that could be technicalities) but I'm not sure that I'm just wasting my time.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Fruitcake

The NEWBIES tells you not to bother with the IAS kangaroo court, so all you can do now is wait to see if you get real court papers. Meanwhile gather evidence of signage and bay markings, and "go fishing" as advised.

What happened when you complained to the landowner?

Coupon-mad

nor the first round of appeal with IAS,

Oh God...why did you start that? P'ease don't do that...no-one told you to do IAS and lose. It is utterly pointless and will make you feel on the back foot and give them an 'advantage' to wave at court stage. A mistake. Not terrible, but a mistake. There is no independent adjudicator.

Unless you can irrevocably prove how badly marked the bay is, with amazing photos, you will lose.