Employment status issue

Nickwarren

Hi. I recently started work as a barber for a shop. I was told it was a self employed role which is fine with me however I got handed a contract yesterday and want to clear a few things up. I provide my own equipment.l pay insurance tax etc however I work to a rota set by the shop and have to request time off. the contract states that if I am late or off sick I have to give 75% of my earning to the shop instead of the agreed 50% for using the shop and have to do a minimum of 8 cuts a day. Surely this means I should be employed (and get the benefits of employment) rather than self employed and not receive any of the benefits of self employment. It's such a gray area and I find it a little confusing. Any help and advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks

jobbingmusician

It certainly sounds employed to me! Have you thought of ringing HMRC and asking their advice? Being fined for not having enough customers in a SE role... :rotfl:

ft_buyer

It's a grey area. I don't know if you've followed the news stories but the questions you have are similar to those being asked with regard to whether "self-employed" people at Yodel, Uber, Hermes, Deliveroo, etc are truly self-employed or just a clever use of employment loopholes by employers to avoid all the costs of employing someone.

Based on what you have said, you could possibly argue that you are effectively an employee, but the question is whether you would want (or have the resources) to contest this formally.

Does the contract actually state that they will penalise you for being sick?

Nickwarren wrote: »

Hi. I recently started work as a barber for a shop. I was told it was a self employed role which is fine with me however I got handed a contract yesterday and want to clear a few things up. I provide my own equipment.l pay insurance tax etc however I work to a rota set by the shop and have to request time off. the contract states that if I am late or off sick I have to give 75% of my earning to the shop instead of the agreed 50% for using the shop and have to do a minimum of 8 cuts a day. Surely this means I should be employed (and get the benefits of employment) rather than self employed and not receive any of the benefits of self employment. It's such a gray area and I find it a little confusing. Any help and advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks

Mersey_2

If they dictate your hours etc, you are an employee - or at they very least 'a worker', with the rights that go with that.


Incidentally, you wouldn't need to pay for legal action - they are in breach for failing to pay NICs etc so could be reported to HMRC and potentially other depts. if failing to pay the NMW etc.

stuart30

Mersey wrote: »

If they dictate your hours etc, you are an employee - or at they very least 'a worker', with the rights that go with that.


Incidentally, you wouldn't need to pay for legal action - they are in breach for failing to pay NICs etc so could be reported to HMRC and potentially other depts. if failing to pay the NMW etc.

Surely anyone you supply a service to can stipulate the hours they expect your services...?

Just thinking Building sites (lots of self employed people) they run pretty much 7.30am to 5pm.

Im self employed and if site agent says your needed to Drive machine starting 7.30am and you finish at 5pm...thats dictating isnt it.

I might well have completely missed something :o

Mersey_2

No, they can't dictate hours to a s-e person. They can suggest 30 hrs per week work or whatever to get x done, but a self-employed person is entitled to work those hours when they want.


In fact, you make a good point. In recent years a lot of builders have been wrongly deemed to be s-e when they are not.

Nickwarren

Wow thanks for the brilliant responses I definitely will call hmrc. I have refused to sign the contract. I don't think the owner is intentionally doing it think he just doesn't really know what he's doing. I'll let him know

sangie595

Nickwarren wrote: »

Wow thanks for the brilliant responses I definitely will call hmrc. I have refused to sign the contract. I don't think the owner is intentionally doing it think he just doesn't really know what he's doing. I'll let him know

I suspect you just lost that job. He will now have to sign up to pay NI and pension. He's hardly going to do that if he wasn't willing to pay the living wage! Whether he knew what he was doing or not, I doubt he wants an employee or he'd have employed someone in the first place.

anamenottaken

I'm surprised the employer/shop owner does not simply charge rent based on an assumption of the value of a certain number of cuts/day whether or not those are actually performed.

xapprenticex

He knows what he is doing...

Undervalued

Yes, of course an employer should comply with the law.

However, in some situations the employee / self employed question is far from clear cut. Provided the "self employed employee" has their eyes open and declares their income to HMRC they are doing nothing wrong. Any comeback will be on the "employer".

It is not just the bottom end of the market either. Plenty of very highly paid individuals and high profile organisations operate in this grey area too. Another good example are dentists. Generally those who are not the proprietors of a private practice will be self employed and "renting a chair". In fact it is rare to find a dentist who is an employee outside of a hospital situation.

Finally I have to say I generally find Sangie's advice excellent and this forum is lucky that s/he is willing to spend so much time providing it!