Ecp pcn

Couldey

Evening all,

My mother received a PCN from Euro Car Parks through the post on Friday gone, which shows her car number plate entering the car park, then exiting the car park 16 minutes later, only her number plates are pictured twice.

The car park is private land by the looks of it (in London, pay and display) and a member of the BPA. The PCN offers a discount if paid within the first 14 days.

As she wasn't driving and is a blue badge holder which was displayed correctly at the time, does she have grounds to appeal? She wasn't driving the car, but dad was as she cannot, due to being on crutches. She is the registered keeper and parked in the disabled bay.

Reading online info, I understand her blue badge doesn't entitle her to park anywhere in the world, which I have reminded her. But going by the sticky thread in the forum, it recommends to appeal. The borough council says it's free for blue badge holders at pay and display car parks, but the ECP car park is not run by the council I believe due to being private land.

I have checked out the car park myself and the signs are not 100% clear, as they are high up on the lamp post. However, it does state "No concessions for disabled badge holders". Should she pay the PCN? Or go down the appeals route?

If she appeals, would the below template be appropriate? If, so, what else should be added? Half of me is thinking to just pay it, other half is thinking to appeal.

Thank you in advance :beer:

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Template appeal for BPA members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:

Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,


THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.

NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE - BUT DON'T POST UNLESS YOU HAVE TO - ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP A SCREEN PRINT. USE ANY EMAIL APPEAL OPTION IF FIRMS OFFER IT.

Coupon-mad

If, so, what else should be added? Half of me is thinking to just pay it, other half is thinking to appeal.

Do this in Mum's name online and if you want to protect Mum from receiving the rejection letter (with POPLA code) state the postal address as YOUR address, and add a line stating 'Please note that my address for service is...then give YOUR postal address'.

Also add a line or two, saying that the keeper was not driving but is disabled. And here is a copy of the Blue Badge as evidence that a reasonable adjustment of the BPA 'grace period' should have been allowed because disabled people (with a walking aid, in this case a person with mobility problems) obviously need longer to consider the signage and indeed even to get to a P&D machine and consider the terms, which were not displayed at the disabled bays, contrary to the BPA code of practice.

The driver and passenger then decided to leave and never accepted a contract. 16 minutes is obviously perfectly reasonable to consider terms on signs when a person is disabled and those terms were not displayed in a way that could be read without getting out of the car.

You can attach things by uploading them on ECP's appeals page. Done it myself loads of times.

Use YOUR email address, or create a 'throwaway' hotmail or gmail one in her name that only YOU have access to. Check it every week and the spam/junk, in case a POPLA code gets sent by email.

Stop thinking about paying this daft fake PCN, it's only ECP! It is not a real fine. I've ignored them myself before POPLA even existed and nothing happens, however, now we have POPLA these are easily cancelled. If you pay you have been mugged by a soft teddy bear with no teeth, come on! It's ECP! Just follow the appeals process in Mum's name and tell her you are handling it for her.

At POPLA stage, you simply search the forum for 'Euro POPLA' to read shedloads of other ones exactly like this - and read post #3 of the NEWBIES thread where the POPLA templates are. Easily won.

Couldey

Hi Coupon-mad,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post, really appreciate it. I have drafted a 1st stage appeal letter with your advice and will use my email address, will the below be fine to send to ECP?

Also, I believe it's fine if the rejection letter goes to my mum's address and i'l reply accordingly if it came through the post, but hopefully they will reply via email to me. Main issue is that I still get my post sent to mum's address as I cannot trust my communal post box.

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Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA.

The keeper was not driving but is disabled and had a valid blue badge on display at the time. Here is a copy of the Blue Badge as evidence that a reasonable adjustment of the BPA 'grace period' should have been allowed because disabled people with a walking aid/mobility issues need longer to consider the signage and indeed even to get to a P&D machine and consider the terms, which were not displayed at the disabled bays, contrary to the BPA code of practice.

The driver and passenger then decided to leave and never accepted a contract. 16 minutes is obviously perfectly reasonable to consider terms on signs when a person is disabled and those terms were not displayed in a way that could be read without getting out of the car.

You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,


Keeper name…….
Keeper address…….

Coupon-mad

Yes that will do nicely and can be copied into ECP's online appeal page with the little car icon! A silly little webpage. Get a screenshot of the short but sweet submission acknowledgement screen, as it doesn't send an auto receipt to any email address.

Put Mum's name on it and whichever address suits.

Couldey

I will submit shortly and keep this thread updated when I get an outcome!

But thank you again Coupon-mad :T

Couldey

Evening all/Coupon-mad,

So my mum got a reply back from the lovely ecp, with a POPLA verification code, rejecting the appeal for a number of reasons. One thing that has come to light is that a second PCN has also been issued! The first time was because mum was doing a trial run (not knowing the area) to the doctors, parking at the car park, then 10 days later she re-visited the same car park for the treatment/appointment and ecp have stated in this rejection letter that there is another PCN issued to the VRM and is currently at a discounted rate.

Below is a brief summary for the rejection:

When purchasing a pay and display ticket, you must enter the correct vehicle registration marker (VRM). No pay and display ticket matching your VRM was purchased at the time. Parking charge issued correctly and remains payable.

The car park in question is on private land and subject to Terns & conditions.

Drivers responsibility to check for signage, there are a number of signs around the car park.

Ecp does not need to provide evidence of who was driving, it's the registered keepers responsibility to inform the full name and address within 28 days beginning with the after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under schedule 4 of the protection of freedoms act 2012, ecp have the right subject of the act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle.

The protection of freedoms act (pofa) does not alter the principle of driver liability. What it does do, is allow proceedings against the registered keeper for unpaid parking charges when the land owner or their agent, the parking operator does not know who the driver was at the time.

Please be advised that signage on site clearly states that there is no concessions for disabled drivers and pay and display must be purchased.

Your disabled handbook also states when parking on private land that restrictions will apply.

At this point, it also states the second PCN issued to VRM on xx/xx/xxxx (same reason) and payable at a discount rate.

The states how it can be paid etc. Lastly it states that we can appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA) within 28 days online at popla.co.uk with the reference number.

They have also included a picture of the parking charge board. it does state no concessions for disabled badge holders, along with tariff prices etc, but the small print stating the terms and conditions isn't readable!

I have searched the sticky thread and a few templates, which i'l post below, but could you please advise if the below template is ok?

Also, how should I go about appealing the second PCN? As she hasn't received a separate letter for this.

Coupon-mad

You need to add a section telling POPLA that the keeper was not driving but was a passenger with a blue badge, and a section about Grace periods (if the car was only there for 16 minutes). To find an example, search the forum for:

'grace periods Kelvin Reynolds POPLA'.

ecp have stated in this rejection letter that there is another PCN issued to the VRM and is currently at a discounted rate.

Email them and ask for the letter and PCN number to appeal.

If that doesn't materialise, phone them and pretend you are about to pay and ask for the PCN number (if they offer to take the payment over the phone, have an excuse such as you aren't paying it, Mum is and she's not here, just needs the PCN number of the one she hasn't received...). Make sure you get the right PCN number for that second one and string them along with any old story to get it.

Couldey

Forgot to add Coupon-mad, they did include the PCN reference number for the second PCN in the same rejection letter - should I carry out another appeal through their website using my second post template in this thread (same as first stage appeal)?

"Email them and ask for the letter and PCN number to appeal.

If that doesn't materialise, phone them and pretend you are about to pay and ask for the PCN number (if they offer to take the payment over the phone, have an excuse such as you aren't paying it, Mum is and she's not here, just needs the PCN number of the one she hasn't received...). Make sure you get the right PCN number for that second one and string them along with any old story to get it."


I'll draft up the popla appeal adding in the grace period section and about the keeper was not driving but a passenger with a blue badge. Thank you again.

Coupon-mad

Yes just do the same template first appeal then, as you do have the second PCN number.

You could add that no NTK has in fact been served at all and this appeal is as a result of being told about this second PCN in a rejection letter about another one.

Couldey

I will add that in tomorrow and submit the second PCN appeal, then draft then popla appeal :beer:

Couldey

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